Atomic Systems

Let's pretend British Rail had never been privatised - what would've been different compared to today's situation? I guess we'd never have seen the Desiros, Junipers, Turbostars etc, instead it'd have been Networkers everywhere... And the HSTs might still be in use in place of the Pendolinos/Voyagers.
But what else? Would we still have seen the Class 66s, or would BR have eschewed new diesels in favour of more electrification? And possibly more branchlines might have been closed off? Anyone up to some educated speculation?

I'm sure this has been done before, but I'll reply anyway, as I miss having a nationalised railway.

I know for a fact that BR had a plan for rolling electrification in the pipeline. I'm pretty sure that the GWML and MML would have been electrified relatively quickly.

Stock-wise, I guess the government would have made BR buy more trains from UK suppliers, rather than importing American, German, or French stock. So I'm presuming that we would have had trains looking more like 321s or 442s on the long-distance Southern routes, and probably some more Networkers. I think that 165/6s would have been the next big DMU fleet.

I suppose that BR always seemed to have more loco-hauled stock than it's successors, and I'm not sure if they would have introduced new MUs for high-speed/long-distance services. My assumption is that we would have had some new fleets of high performance electric locomotives; probably along the lines of the 92s, and then I imagine that the 60s would have been the benchmark for new diesels. Whatever happened, I imagine that fleets would have been much more standardised throughout the country.

However, I don't really know that much about the trains side of the matter. I do believe, however, that we would not have to pay anything like some of the enormous ticket prices we do now, and we could have a more sensible and balanced fare structure. We would also not have to subsidise the railways as much, as the rail subsidy from the government has escalated a lot since privatisation.

I'm not sure that closures were in the pipeline at all. I don't think BR had any plans to close lines. I think some branchlines may have been reopened - in a similar vein to the Robin Hood line. I think there would have been substantial inestment in infrastructure, such as the WCML upgrade - and it would have been done properly - not like Railtrack's incomplete job!

Well, that's my vision of what would have happened. Anyone else?

Nick

If British Rail still existed...

We'd all be moaning how rubbish it was.

yj03ppv wrote:

If British Rail still existed...

We'd all be moaning how rubbish it was.

And how privatisation would be the panacea...

It's very difficult to tell what would have happened. Some of the mistakes of privatisation would not have been made - It's hard to see BR ordering electric trains without thinking about their impact on the power supply. It's also hard to see BR indulging in the cost-cutting which lead to Railtrack's demise in the wake of Hatfield. Incompetant .-ups like Potter's Bar would probably still have happened.

Rolling stock wise, I don't see that it would have been vastly different. It probably would still have been MUs, but not such a wide variety (a single type for the south-of-the-river lines, a generic 3rd gen medium distance DMU (170s, I imagine and no 185s) and we would probably not have things like the 180, of which there are 14). Pacers might well have been replaced too.

I imagine the GWML to Oxford & Bedwyn would possibly have been electrified, but schemes such as that would be subject to governmental approval. And on that note, if BR hadn't been privatised, it's likely that Mr Kinnock would have won in 1992, and that's another huge slice of mystery - what would the UK look like if that had happened? Would it have been an economic disaster? would it have been a roaring success? Would we have left the ERM? Would we be involved with Iraq? These are the kind of things that would have massive repercussions way beyond the railway, but of course BR would have been caught up in the hypothetical government's actions....

arabiandisco wrote:

yj03ppv wrote:

If British Rail still existed...

We'd all be moaning how rubbish it was.

And how privatisation would be the panacea...

But now we know the truth........

No point in debating the issue the Government will never be in the position to re-nationalise.
Only question I have...... is where did all the public money go ?
In fact where did all the monies go from all the sold off nationalised industries?
Certainly not into our Health service.
If there is a God, Thatcher and her kin will burn in hell forever.
Cheers
Jon

Maybe we could have a London - Edinburgh HSL in the pipeline... seeing as it was proposed in a book I was reading.

Since most of the people running the privatised railway are ex BR managers I think it would be very similar.

But with fewer managers and shareholders with their hands in the moneypot there would have been more money to pay for improvements.

charlierc wrote:Maybe we could have a London - Edinburgh HSL in the pipeline... seeing as it was proposed in a book I was reading.

Which book was that?

ianmacmillan wrote:Since most of the people running the privatised railway are ex BR managers I think it would be very similar.

But with fewer managers and shareholders with their hands in the moneypot there would have been more money to pay for improvements.

I think I would agree with this to a degree, it may not be believed but the actual amount of money being invested in the network is massive.

We all think the infrastructure is tired now, but believe me, I've seen the improvements with my own eyes!

Realistically I don't think this would have happened under BR leadership, but then, I don't think BR would have made silly mistakes like the ordering of swathes of MU's which aren't compatable with each other and building small fleets of non-standard vehicles.

I'm afraid that sometimes rose-tinted spectacles obscure the real view of BR, what we have now probably isn't ideal in the view of many people, but then, neither was what we had before.

If BR still existed, then either there would have been all these 'great things' (Networkers - great?), or BR would have stalled in the economic crash of the mid-90s, and we'd have still had a Hatfield.

In terms of the 'beloved' Networkers, perhaps the full Networker Express design would have emerged, rather than a mere forty 'pimped-up' dual-voltage versions. The "Mark III" line was dead - NSE would have ordered Networkers exclusively. Pacer replacement - unlikely, I'd suggest it would only be starting about now (in the Alterniverse), the Treasury would ensure that BR would have got 25 years life out of them before sending them to the scrappers. Some electrification would have happened - but even Chris Green knew the GWML would be a hard one to get, hence the order for Turbos. The Class 60s and 92s may have grown - however Railfreight may have just gone and put in an order for Class 59s anyway (the '60' procurement was by pure fluke of Brush's spec being on paper better than EMD's - who were supposed to win).

Fares - that depends wholly on the economy - fares would not have gone up if the boom resulting in increased travel hadn't happened (but in that case much of the above paragraph does not apply), equally fares could have risen to price passengers off, as BR did on the Valley Lines.

Neil Kinnock would not have won in 1992. For this he can only blame his family for living the 'wrong' side of Chepstow - the British (ie mostly English) electorate will tolerate a Scot (especially one with an English constituency and no accent), but a Welshman as PM is a step too far (no disrespect to the Welsh, but it's true!).

Getting back to 'Networker Express' - of course they were built, 400+ units (and counting...). Answers on a postcard to Litchurch Lane, Derby. On another postcard (this one for Great Minster House, Marsham Street, London W1): "What would Britain's railways be like if, assuming private ownership was inevitable, the Government had taken the time to build a model which worked?"

mattvince wrote:Getting back to 'Networker Express' - of course they were built, 400+ units (and counting...). Answers on a postcard to Litchurch Lane, Derby. On another postcard (this one for Great Minster House, Marsham Street, London W1): "What would Britain's railways be like if, assuming private ownership was inevitable, the Government had taken the time to build a model which worked?"

Wondered who would be the first to spot that! The bogies are the good old series 3 taken that little step further, whilst the rest is done using the lessons learnt from the Networkers. For instance there are no side-skirts protecting the underfloor equipment, due to the experience of them falling off the Networkers! I could go on...

In relation to the second point, there was a model which could have worked very well, but somehow it was brushed aside in favour of greater fragmentation. Sad thing is the lessons won't be learnt.

Would developments such as TPWS have occurred? Would the massive investment in the WCML and its fleet of tilting trains have occurred? How would EU regulations have affected BR? Would this concentration on bodyshell collision strength have occurred with experienced managers in full control of standards etc.?

Lots of what-ifs some good, some bad. But some stability in the current model might allow us to better assess it..

Regards,

Dan

If BR existed, then we will no Pendolinos or Voyagers. BR planned a West Coast upgrade with Intercity 250s (Class 93s and Mk5s). BR was planned new locomotives of Classes 38, 48, 78 and 88. Class 157s were planned for Strathclyde Passenger Transport Executive. There will no Desiros from Siemens. BR will not order new trains from aboard.

rowan826 wrote:There will no Desiros from Siemens. BR will not order new trains from aboard.

So we'd be stuck with batches of poorly built unreliable rolling stock that doesn't work for the first few years whilst they get their heads around the fact they screwed up and put the drivers' seat in the wrong place (stupid errors like this on the 456s)!

John

I don't think (new) foreign stock has been an astounding success. 458s anyone? However, the government would have always been reluctant to let BR order from abroad when they could help the economy by ordering British-built trains.

@rowan826; what would 78s and 88s be. 78 sounds like it belongs on a 1500V DC locomotive. I am intrigued by what you say though - do you know if BR had serious plans to this extent.

Some things here are being attributed to the private sector which really shouldn't though. The private sector delivered pre-existing BR plans, only later, and not always to their full extent. For example the WCML upgrade would have been done earlier, and to it's proper 140mph if the BR board got it's way. Secondly the private sector is often attributed with replacing Mk1-based EMUs in the South; but I'm pretty sure that BR's plans would have actually had them replaced sooner without the delay whilst the franchises set themselves up.

Nick

Whoops,

double post

Nick