Low Cost Trains for Europe, brought to you by... China

AlistairW · Post by **AlistairW** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:14 pm

Fair point but a rather bad example as they're not for much longer...

158832 · Post by **158832** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:24 pm

Found this thread quite interesting, particularly the involvement by someone connected with the project - definitely the kind of openness that's to be encouraged...

Seeing the number of clapped out Pacers (and even a 121) we have trundling round Cardiff at the moment prompts me to ask - what is the latest on the possibility of Chinese-built (or indeed anywhere else-built) Pacer replacements?

salopiangrowler · Post by **salopiangrowler** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:38 pm

Probably when the olympics come in. The Javelins are set to turn up next year a year in storage before they get used then???

if anything the chinesse are pretty quick, and if there foods to go by, well you get quality and quantity. I admire the Chinese for there help to us. They certainly improved Irelands Commuter service's

AlistairW · Post by **AlistairW** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:54 pm

salopiangrowler wrote: if anything the chinesse are pretty quick, and if there foods to go by, well you get quality and quantity. I admire the Chinese for there help to us. They certainly improved Irelands Commuter service's

True the food is good, maybe I'm missing something but how have the Chinese improved Irelands commuter service's?

158832 · Post by **158832** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:40 pm

I think the new Irish units are a Korean/Japanese co-production (Rotem/Tokyu Car)?

AlistairW · Post by **AlistairW** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:05 pm

I know all the new electric DART 85XX series units are made by Mitsui in Japan.

BR7MT · Post by **BR7MT** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:17 pm

salopiangrowler wrote:Probably when the olympics come in. The Javelins are set to turn up next year a year in storage before they get used then???

The first 4 will come over here for testing, with the lessons learnt from that process being added to the main production batch before they are shipped to the UK. The 4 units over here will be upgraded (by bringing the relevant parts from Japan) and the units should enter the testing and service phase in good time to start the services at the December (2008 / 2009?) timetable change.

They will spend very little, if any, time in storage. The work-up phase for the introduction of CTRL domestic services will be quite intense, as obviously there is the potential for these services to interfere with Eurostar workings and vice-versa.

Regards,

Dan

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:12 am

Ouch, Matt (SG), be careful passing off Japanese as Chinese or Korean: whilst they may appear to have good business relations, culturally, there is a long history of animosity (think Great Britain, France and Germany, writ huge)...

Dan - is there any idea of a notional working timetable for CTRL-DS? It'd be interesting to work out just how well the CTRL is proposed to be used, whether they will be looking for a standard-hour pattern, or whether it is a question of waiting to see what Eurostar plans as aspirations for Dec'09, then filling the gaps. The work-up will be very intense, not only new traction over existing routes, but new traction over new routes - getting enough passed staff to run even a skeleton service could be troublesome.

For a seriously cheap unit, I keep getting drawn to Adtranz' 1996 proposal for a Mark 1 'replacement' - the Class 424, better known as 'Networker Classic'. Adtranz were quoting Â£250k/vehicle for Class 424, with more work involved, a suitably-rebuilt Class 158 could cost (at a guess) around Â£400k-500k/vehicle. All it would take is a new bodyshell with new doors - potentially much of the donor '158' could be re-used, including almost all of the mechanicals and most, if not all the electricals. Using a Turbostar body would keep design and development costs down, and allow savings from those bits of the design which are of the Turbostar/Electrostar family. And it would still be wholly compatible with 15x/170 units, unlike any of its competitors. Transition costs would also be less, as a TOC already operating a mixed 158/170 fleet (such as ScotRail and Central) would already have trained staff and spares, and traincrew traction knowledge would be an easy conversion. As there are a dearth of Class 158s, and presently-used sets can also be displaced by bringing in new trains on high-revenue Inter-City/Inter-Regional services, the option of transforming the nearly-unusable Class 158s into high-quality suburban Pacer-killers, with ambience to match the newest London units, seems almost attractive. I'm a big fan of the Stadler units for regional lines and suburban routes where their near-unique abilities can be exploited, but for true suburban operations, a high-capacity 'real' DMU is better.

BR7MT · Post by **BR7MT** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:30 pm

mattvince wrote:Dan - is there any idea of a notional working timetable for CTRL-DS? It'd be interesting to work out just how well the CTRL is proposed to be used, whether they will be looking for a standard-hour pattern, or whether it is a question of waiting to see what Eurostar plans as aspirations for Dec'09, then filling the gaps. The work-up will be very intense, not only new traction over existing routes, but new traction over new routes - getting enough passed staff to run even a skeleton service could be troublesome.

I would surprised if there wasn't one floating around somewhere, but it isn't in the public domain. I assume they would have to be planned pretty carefully to take account of the 46 mph speed differential between the two train types. Also, which takes priority? I suspect Eurostar, in which case they have to work out the knock on effects of looping late running 395's to allow an on-time 373 to pass. How would it affect services on the network east of Ashford?

Lots of tricky planning going on there, hence why I suggested that the units will be intensively used and not stored prior to service. It is also beneficial to Hitachi to get some experience of the maintenance requirements before they enter service.

As I have said all along, they are doing everything 'right' for this service and these trains. Hopefully the results will be favourable and show the rest of the UK rail industry the way ahead.

Regards,

Dan

buffy500 · Post by **buffy500** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:58 pm

salopiangrowler wrote:Probably when the olympics come in. The Javelins are set to turn up next year a year in storage before they get used then???

if anything the chinesse are pretty quick, and if there foods to go by, well you get quality and quantity. I admire the Chinese for there help to us. They certainly improved Irelands Commuter service's

Possibly one of the funniest things I've read this month.

It actually beggars belief that you spent the time typing that, never mind actually thinking it was true.

salopiangrowler · Post by **salopiangrowler** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:33 pm

buffy500 wrote: It actually beggars belief that you spent the time typing that, never mind actually thinking it was true.

Chinese food is good, and so is japanese so there

Mattvince, sorry yes, i am the one and only person that i know of who actually walked through, Burns Square on Burns Day in Ayr and said out loud to my father who the hells Robbie Burns, without realising. Culturely i am not up on that.

NickCollier · Post by **NickCollier** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:34 am

BR7MT wrote:
mattvince wrote:Dan - is there any idea of a notional working timetable for CTRL-DS? It'd be interesting to work out just how well the CTRL is proposed to be used, whether they will be looking for a standard-hour pattern, or whether it is a question of waiting to see what Eurostar plans as aspirations for Dec'09, then filling the gaps. The work-up will be very intense, not only new traction over existing routes, but new traction over new routes - getting enough passed staff to run even a skeleton service could be troublesome.
I would surprised if there wasn't one floating around somewhere, but it isn't in the public domain. I assume they would have to be planned pretty carefully to take account of the 46 mph speed differential between the two train types. Also, which takes priority? I suspect Eurostar, in which case they have to work out the knock on effects of looping late running 395's to allow an on-time 373 to pass. How would it affect services on the network east of Ashford?

Lots of tricky planning going on there, hence why I suggested that the units will be intensively used and not stored prior to service. It is also beneficial to Hitachi to get some experience of the maintenance requirements before they enter service.

As I have said all along, they are doing everything 'right' for this service and these trains. Hopefully the results will be favourable and show the rest of the UK rail industry the way ahead.

Regards,

Dan

Priority would be the Eurostar, as they are designated class 9 trains. Ultimatly the customs requirements should mean as little stops as possible. Along with the fact any out bound sets will be meeting a slot at the tunnel.

arabiandisco · Post by **arabiandisco** » Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:10 pm

The actual proposed usage of the CTRL is pretty sparse, certainly country-side of ebbsfleet. You're only really looking at 2, maybe 3 eurostars per hour, which leaves an awful lot of blank time for the domestic services.

Late running of CTRL DS trains east of Ashford would probably not have much impact on the non-395 traffic, as those lines are pretty quiet. Though the question of whether the new CTRL services will be in addition to, or instead of existing services is not one I can answer.

trainlover123 · Post by **trainlover123** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:02 pm

A few things I would like to see in this unit:

1 - Disabled access - My grandad unfortunately cannot bend his legs very and recently when we took a 158 to York we had to sit on a table seat simply because of legroom issues. Bigger doors would also be nice as things like wheelchairs can use the units.

2 - Hydrogen Power - A beautiful way of making clean cheap energy because if you react Oxygen with Hydrogen you get pure water and a lot of energy. Buses use it so why can't trains?

2 - Re-Generative brakes - This type of brake is one way of using less fuel, especially as you don't have to operate an air compressor which takes a fair amount of power, the system can also be used to re-charge the batteries and even help power the cabin air-con etc...

3 - Luggage space - It really annoys me that many units don't have any luggage space at all, even a tiny bit at the end of the coach, Pacer services are often not packed so surely some passenger space could be sacrificed to give a bit of luggage space! I went on a French unit that worked a Pacer-style route and there was luggage space to boot!

BR7MT · Post by **BR7MT** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:12 pm

trainlover123 wrote:2 - Hydrogen Power - A beautiful way of making clean cheap energy because if you react Oxygen with Hydrogen you get pure water and a lot of energy. Buses use it so why can't trains?

I would disagree with this:

a) How do you get the hydrogen? You need to expend energy to get it. There are a few methods that can be used that minismises this energy, but research is still on-going.

b) One of the benefits of using diesel is that it will only ignite when in vapour / spray form, hydrogen is a very volatile gas and special reinforced carbon fibre tanks are required to hold it at high pressure.

One way of getting around (a) is to use the energy generated by wind power to produce the hydrogen, but we obviously will still be using vast amounts of energy to make energy. Not particularly efficient.

Regards,

Dan