Low Cost Trains for Europe, brought to you by... China

[AlistairW]

3:Side windows for the driver,the train may look prettier without them but driving with only the front view leads to a horrible tunnel vison type effect & makes judging speeds/marker boards at platforms hard/impossible.Also make sure they have openings for the driver.

I wonder what a Voyager is like then!

[CSRZiyang]

Heres a kind of list of things the new units probably wont have but is actually important for the people who drive them,not the ones who just admire them from the outside.

1: Proper two lever driving controls (I have two hands for this purpose,single power/brake controllers are awkward to control smoothly especially when they put them on the left even though more people are right handed.)

2:Couplings that are compatible with other units running around.

3:Side windows for the driver,the train may look prettier without them but driving with only the front view leads to a horrible tunnel vison type effect & makes judging speeds/marker boards at platforms hard/impossible.Also make sure they have openings for the driver.

4:As much space as possible between driver & passenger vestibule so when there are chavs standing around listening to music on there phones it doesnt deafen the driver.

5:Forget about saving weight,light trains skid at the mere hint of light rain/leaves.Also dont believe that Wheel slip/slide protection will overcome this fact,it doesnt.

6:Dont make the cab of the train a crumple zone like the 175,it scares us drivers

Thank you for that input.

1. Interesting that this driver prefers two hand controls. The Chinese still use this as standard, but the train operator's spec calls for a combined power / brake controller. I'd be interested to hear more views on this from the trainsim crowd.

2. It is intended that the couplers will be Scharfenberg, to couple to modern units, with adapters for BSI and Dellner. It might make sense to use BSI so ensure compatiblity with Pacers and Sprinters, but this may be short-sighted, because when they disappear, it won't couple to anything.

3. As you can see from the Avatar, the unit will have large side windows, which can be slid open.

4. Immediately behind the cab is the passenger saloon, much like Class 323, but there will be good sound insulation between the two.

5. Tricky one... Network Rail demand track-friendly trains and the environmental lobby demand economical trains.... both require lower weight. At a conference I was at last week, it was suggested that a magnetic track brake should be fitted.... any thoughts?

6. Currently, Rail Group Standards for crashworthiness dictate that a bodyshell should deform in a controlled manner, absorbing energy.... this usually means a crumple zone. This is the case on all new Classes, not just 175. I can understand why drivers would be concerned about this, especially when driving in the dark. Any ideas for a solution?... other than moving the crumple zone backwards into the passenger compartment.... that isn't acceptable.

[arabiandisco]

I believe the Tyne & Wear metro has a magnetic track brake as it's emergency stop. I've not been on one when it was deployed, but according to people who have, they certainly stop the things. Certainly it would be awful to make the things even more obese than other modern stock just because modern brakes are mediocre - sort the brakes out, rather than add ballast. Another trick you could use to slow the things, assuming you put proper (electric) transmission in is rheostatic/ regenerative brakes. Or, using a technique that dates back to the first days of railways, FIT SANDERS AND FILL THEM WITH SAND. Drivers: Remember to use your sanders.

I'm afraid we're stuck with crumple zones (and the additional weight they entail) until some common sense can be injected into the RGS, where the old cliché "prevention is better than cure" seems to have been sealed into a concrete block and dropped into the mid atlantic trench.

Modern trains seem to be heading towards the single handle controller. I can't see any reason why you'd want to have power and brakes applied (apart from anti-slip protection, which was on the power handle as far back as the class 45 in 1961), and surely with all the millions of warning systems required these days, a free hand would be useful! Yes having a power handle and separate brake handle harks back to the long gone days of proper (loco hauled) trains, but times change...

[AlistairW]

Most trams have magnetic brakes too, I know the ones in Sheffield do as you can hear the clunk as they hit the rails, train stops pretty sharpish mind.

[alexnick]

Magnetic track brakes:

I've heard that SBB have them as emergency brakes on their newer locomotives - definitely the Re460s. I've never experienced them in use, but I've heard the're pretty effective. I also know that the RhB fitted the Bernina line railcars with them (because you have to stop on very steep gradients there), but only as an emergency brake - and they work!!!

I've only heard of them in regular use on trams - I don't know if all trams have them, but I think everything Duewag or Tatra has them!

Nick

[buffy500]

Croydon trams do.
I understand that they can throw people to the floor if used at speed.

[Ghostcav]

Modern trains seem to be heading towards the single handle controller. I can't see any reason why you'd want to have power and brakes applied (apart from anti-slip protection, which was on the power handle as far back as the class 45 in 1961), and surely with all the millions of warning systems required these days, a free hand would be useful! Yes having a power handle and separate brake handle harks back to the long gone days of proper (loco hauled) trains, but times change...

The problem with single power/brake controllers is the amount of throw they can have in the actual handle.Personally my only experience is with 175's but this seems consistant with other types. There is no time I could see a use for both power & brake at the same time either,that is not the point. The point is that the throttle curve of a lever & brake curve are different & having that on the same controller leads to problems(Basically we brake differently to how we apply power).
175's have only 4 power notch settings,this combined with a variable brake application at the opposite end of the throw (plus emergency) max out the amount of throw the lever could have before the driver would suffer from serious RSI. Trouble is 4 power notches on a 100mph capable unit equals constant juggling to keep anywhere near the line speed.Theres just not enough variable settings . Also after 3 hours solid driving with the single power/brake handle results in a very very sore arm/shoulder ,they are so sensitive that a style of driving has to be adopted where part of your hand pushes whilst another part pulls just to try & maintain a smooth transition. Kinda hard to explain.
Drove 175 south today =sore arm.
Drove 158 back =no problems

BTW same safety systems on both,actually more on a 158 as the sanders are manual as well as auto.
Times do not always change for the better.

[CSRZiyang]

Modern trains seem to be heading towards the single handle controller. I can't see any reason why you'd want to have power and brakes applied (apart from anti-slip protection, which was on the power handle as far back as the class 45 in 1961), and surely with all the millions of warning systems required these days, a free hand would be useful! Yes having a power handle and separate brake handle harks back to the long gone days of proper (loco hauled) trains, but times change...

The problem with single power/brake controllers is the amount of throw they can have in the actual handle.Personally my only experience is with 175's but this seems consistant with other types. There is no time I could see a use for both power & brake at the same time either,that is not the point. The point is that the throttle curve of a lever & brake curve are different & having that on the same controller leads to problems(Basically we brake differently to how we apply power).
175's have only 4 power notch settings,this combined with a variable brake application at the opposite end of the throw (plus emergency) max out the amount of throw the lever could have before the driver would suffer from serious RSI. Trouble is 4 power notches on a 100mph capable unit equals constant juggling to keep anywhere near the line speed.Theres just not enough variable settings . Also after 3 hours solid driving with the single power/brake handle results in a very very sore arm/shoulder ,they are so sensitive that a style of driving has to be adopted where part of your hand pushes whilst another part pulls just to try & maintain a smooth transition. Kinda hard to explain.
Drove 175 south today =sore arm.
Drove 158 back =no problems

BTW same safety systems on both,actually more on a 158 as the sanders are manual as well as auto.
Times do not always change for the better.

Clearly there are issues here that need to be examined. How do you think it's best to take this forward, to examine the best arrangement for drivers?

In the past, I've been involved in cab design, and ASLEF was always involved in "signing off" the cab.

If it's of any interest, here's a photo of a typical CSR Ziyang loco cab. Note the use of touch-sensitive plasma screens. The one on the right is the engine management data. The plastic film everywhere is to protect the surfaces from scratches prior to delivery.



And here's the first concept image for the UK Low Cost DMU cab. Obviously there is a huge amount of work to do, because presently no work has been done to address the actual devices necessary in a UK cab, such as AWS / TPWS sunflower indicator etc, but the desk layout will be subject to mock-up and consultation anyway.

[AlistairW]

What about putting a little stove in the cab like they used to so the drive can make a brew...?

On a serious note from a passenger point of view, please don't put the air-con intake next to the toilet extraction vent. It is nice when all seats line up with the windows, and to have seats which aren't huge as it makes the carriage seem smaller, the original MK3 seats were quite nice I thought.

[Ghostcav]

I bet it is a tricky situation trying to design a cab,after all drivers do not come in a standard size only

Looking at the mock up (& I understand its only a mock up) my first concerns would be.
:What I presume is the train managment system screens directly infront of the driver. I also presume these are auto dimming until a fault or system activation occurs.But in my opnion these should not be mounted directly infront as glare from the screen when they are illuminated will ruin the drivers night vision & cause unneccesary distraction taking your eyes away from the line ahead. The only thing personally I need to see to aid good & safe driving is brake guages & speedo.As there are two screens there maybe one is a kinda electronic speedo/brake guage?

:The power/brake controllers angle could well lead to an uncomfortable driving position.Hard to say without having a go but I think the straight forward & back would work better as these type of controllers need to have fairly heavy springing to get a positive action between stages of power/neutral/brake.

:The secondmans area needs more attention.Whilst I realise that using the term secondman harks back to the good ol days I still refer to it as that.Point being there are many occasions when a driver would be accompanied up front (Pilot working/road learning/instructing/conducting over a route etc etc)

: Is the bottom bit of the window the opening part? If so this really needs to be big enough to be able to stick your head out.The profeesional driving policys still dictate that when you are able to you should always look back when leaving a platform,also becomes easier to communicate with handsignalmen/other rail staff doing safe working of trains duties on trackside. Also after a non TPWS emergency brake demand it is current practice to observe by looking back over your train for train divided/pass comm pulled/fire system activated/TCA failure etc etc

As for some of the cabs out there that have been passed as fit,well really makes you wonder really. 175's for example (as these are the only 'new' units I sign) The horn position,mounted above drivers head makes the cab enviroment an extremely noisy place.The TMS beeping that the toilet is full or other non safety system problem (what part of that is important enough to distract a driver for?) & the AWS sunflower being located flat & in the middle of the windscreen area so unless you have the seat all the way back it becomes hard/difficult to see.

[arabiandisco]

I have to say, the first thing that jumped out of that image is the power controller being pretty much behind the driver's shoulder. That is a recipe for discomfort!

It'll be the top bit of the window which moves - backwards possibly?

[CSRZiyang]

I have to say, the first thing that jumped out of that image is the power controller being pretty much behind the driver's shoulder. That is a recipe for discomfort!

It'll be the top bit of the window which moves - backwards possibly?

Sorry that it's taken me a while to get back to you on the side windows, but I wanted to check my facts. I'm in China at present and I took the attached photo yesterday in the factory. The locking arrangement is far more robust than the old MkIII coach arrangement, as it's a kind of nylon cam, which presses on to the frame and is helped by gravity (the weight of the droplight). Hope that helps.

[CSRZiyang]

Looking at the mock up (& I understand its only a mock up) my first concerns would be.
:What I presume is the train managment system screens directly infront of the driver. I also presume these are auto dimming until a fault or system activation occurs.But in my opnion these should not be mounted directly infront as glare from the screen when they are illuminated will ruin the drivers night vision & cause unneccesary distraction taking your eyes away from the line ahead. The only thing personally I need to see to aid good & safe driving is brake guages & speedo.As there are two screens there maybe one is a kinda electronic speedo/brake guage?

I agree with you about almost everything you have said. I took the attached photo yesterday and it shows a new loco cab desk. You will see that the speedo and brake gauges are central. Also, the overhanging cowl at the top of the desk is designed to prevent any glare from gauges, instruments and warning lights being reflected on the windscreen.



The two screens are one for the engine management data and one for the TMS. Both will be dimmed when all is fine, unless the driver chooses to take a look. The range of TMS info provided to the driver will be strictly limited and will definitely only include "show stoppers", not every small thing that is recorded by the TMS, but which the driver has no need to know, or act on.

I also agree about the power/brake controller position. Actually it's exaggerated in the visual, which kind of gives a wide angle "fish eye" image rather than presenting reality.

On the second man's position, it is planned to have two tip-up seats, one as shown and one on the cab back wall. Also (if there's room and the operator agrees) there will be a water boiler and food warmer, as shown on the attached image. We have to keep our train crew happy!

[salopiangrowler]

Very nice.

But with all these gadgets i fail to see how one can build a go anywhere Unit and enable it to say Go anywhere.

Fitting it with:

AWS
TPWS
OTMR
ERTMS
RETB
GSM-R

will be a big job alone. One thing if you are Building the Chassie and Wheels AWS and TPWS pick up off the Bogie's, If I Recall Correctly. where as OTMR is a black box recorder and ERTMS is Sattelite based, IIRC. RETB is Radio Electronic Token Block, something not to worry about.

[dikkidee]

Peugeot's are built in Coventry. But they are still French!!!!!