Low Cost Trains for Europe, brought to you by... China

[arabiandisco]

CSRZiyang, what is the unit shown in your avatar? Is it a computer generated image of a train you're developing? A High Speed Train perhaps?

I work for a large manufacturer of diesel engines who build engines worldwide, including China, and the engines built there always have considerably lower reliability than the ones built elsewhere. Will the TOC's just end up paying more through maintenance and trains delays in the long run?

With European power, transmission and braking systems, this will be a European DMU in an oriental robe.

Doesn't this clarify the situation, or are they European designs manufactured in China? I regret that I haven't read this article, so I may not know the full story, but it sounds good to me.

John

I've just dug up the modern railways article - it was written, for those that are interested, by David Shipley, who is a director of CSRE (aka CSR Ziyang).

It doesn't go into great specifics about what's made where, but 30% is imported, 10% is locally built under license (the example it gives for that is the doors) and 60% locally designed and manufactured. It does say that the power unit will be imported (to China) from Europe. I'd guess the 60% is the hefty bits, such as body shells, bogies and interiors which will be chinese design, wheras things like the engines and control systems will be imported.

The image in CSRZ's avatar is the artists impression of these DMUs that accompanies the article.

[AlistairW]

The title of the article reads:

Low-cost Chinese trains for Europe
David Shipley explains how manufacturing in China means lower prices.

Maybe it is a good thing but from personal experience and the problems the company I work for incounter proves that in general products from China have a lower build quality.

Edit:

Okay 1 slightly maybe over the top comment about the display picture and the main picture in modern railways (they're the same). Why is this DIESEL marketed unit running along side an electrified line?

[salopiangrowler]

I believe China can do this.

They seem to have run out of idea's for there own Railway's so they entre the World Train Manufactoring market which is a good thing.

The world economy need's to remain strong and without China the economy will Fall dramatically.

it seem's that Germany, USA and China are keeping the Trains on the rail's here now.

[mattvince]

Don't be misled. This is a conventional DMU

That there is the rub. I am personally of the opinion that we cannot afford to rest on our laurels regarding the environmental impact of rail - particularly on marginal routes such as those operated by Northern Rail. The fact is, in environmental terms, the railways have to move to a zero-emissions (or near as is possible) position within the next few decades - the Pacer and Sprinter replacement presents a once-in-a-generation opportunity to move towards that goal. Conventional DMUs simply aren't good enough in the age of Climate Change awareness - we need a unit which helps reduce our dependancy on oil consumption (and resulting pollution), thereby also reducing operating costs. The up-front price is not critical - the cost of operating them from introduction to ~2040 is.

[AlistairW]

Following on from Matt, yes yes I know we need replacements but any replacement DMUs we do have are going to be better lit, be air conditioned, be considerably heavier and have more gadgets. I'm in no way saying these things are bad, they're good for passengers and bottom line thats what really counts. But non of this will aid fuel consumption. Surely even todays most efficient engine can't do all this and be more economic than a pacer?

[salopiangrowler]

Nothing's impossible, everything has a solution eventually. With a standard european traction package econoy can be achieved, remember China are only building the Shell and interior, not the mechanic's.

[BR7MT]

The use of steel bodies is also detrimental to the efficiency of any unit, aluminium would be preferential. These units have to be, if you will pardon the layman's term, "dirt cheap" to operate throughout their lifetime.

Regards,

Dan

[salopiangrowler]

Steel's cheaper than alluminium. Well the scrap value is.

If i was driving id be better off knowing that im sat in a steel cab rather than an alluminum one.

[mattvince]

Aluminium is a 'mature' metal - it's the way it's fabricated which causes problems. Dan will probably go on about Hitachi's Friction Stir Welding - a technique which the Cullen Report has advocated. Steel is actually a fairly 'dumb' material - aviation only uses steel where no other material will do the job - which isn't that often. Following the aviation industry's use of materials could yield significant weight reduction - eventually, perhaps regional trains could be made using Carbon Fibre Composites. Relative to steel, this is a smart material - you layer up the carbon fibre, then cure in an oven. This allows very complex, very strong, yet very lightweight, shapes to be built very easily, without resorting to metal-bashing and other methods which can reduce the strength of the metal.

They not only have to be "dirt cheap" to operate, they have to be able to flaunt their environmental credentials. a 'heavy' diesel multiple unit cannot really do this - and there is a potential for significant traffic growth by marketing them as being the 'greenest kid on the block'.

[BR7MT]

One thing that can be overlooked is the need to repair damaged bodyshells - steel is relatively simple to weld a replacement section into, aluminium is a lot more difficult. FSR in theory allows a simplification of the repair process, but it requires a smal scale manufacturing-esque facility in the UK to achieve this.

Fibre reinforced materials can be a double edged sword from a repair viewpoint, some are easy to repair whilst others most definitely are not. Carbon fibre unfortunately falls into the latter category, if the fibres are broken. If the fibres are not, then it should be repairable by breaking off the damaged matrix, replacing with new and then curing again under controlled conditions.

Of course if side swipes in depots and little yobs torching trains for fun can be eliminated then these more advanced materials are a more attractive proposition

Regards,

Dan

[CSRZiyang]

You wouldn't by chance be the author of the article about these units that appeared in the recent edition of Modern Railways?

Regards,

Dan

Dan, yes my name is David Shipley, and my company, CSRE Limited represents CSR Ziyang Locomotive Co. Ltd in Europe.

I will try to respond to each of the comments / questions one by one, but please forgive me if this takes a while.

Regards,

David.

[CSRZiyang]

Without seeming too rude in any shape or form but I work for a large manufacturer of diesel engines who build engines worldwide, including China, and the engines built there always have considerably lower reliability than the ones built elsewhere. Will the TOC's just end up paying more through maintenance and trains delays in the long run?

I personally believe the venture is being driven by Chinese officials with a few European PR people. Maybe I’m wrong but it’s just my opinion. The article in Modern Railways was very biased (as you’d expect) and the DMU comes across as far to good to be true. I’m in favour of a replacement but I’m British and believe if all of our trains orders should be to companies in the UK or at least Europe. That’s why we’re part of the EU isn’t it?

Alistair, the DMUS will utilise the latest generation MTU power unit, coupled to a Voith hydraulic transmission.

I wish that the venture were being "driven by Chinese officials with a few European PR people"... my life would be far easier! The venture is being driven by a very ambitious (admittedly state owned, but autonomously managed) factory, and I am an engineer, not a PR person. I work closely with the Chinese engineers, along with a few experienced UK consultants, to advise about the type of product that is required for the UK market and the hurdles to it gaining acceptance.

I agree that the article in the recent Modern Railways was biased, but that was because the editor took what I said at a recent conference verbatum and did not exercise any critical appraisal.... maybe he's leaving that to Roger Ford, who has done it quite successfully in the past!

Forgive me for being slightly provocative, but it seems strange that you think it's Ok for your European engine manufacturer employer to ply its trade in China, yet wrong for the Chinese to ply theirs in Europe.

[CSRZiyang]

CSRZiyang, what is the unit shown in your avatar? Is it a computer generated image of a train you're developing? A High Speed Train perhaps?

I work for a large manufacturer of diesel engines who build engines worldwide, including China, and the engines built there always have considerably lower reliability than the ones built elsewhere. Will the TOC's just end up paying more through maintenance and trains delays in the long run?

With European power, transmission and braking systems, this will be a European DMU in an oriental robe.

Doesn't this clarify the situation, or are they European designs manufactured in China? I regret that I haven't read this article, so I may not know the full story, but it sounds good to me.

John

John, the Avatar is our Pacer / Sprinter replacement product. As a standard, the unit will have an MTU / Voith power pack, delivering 360 kW under each vehicle, will be limited to 120 km / h (75 mph) and will have hopper windows and pressure ventilation.

With a change of gearbox, the fitting of a yaw damper, stiffening of the suspension and installation o air conditioning (all of which can be retro-fitted to a second hand unit or installed from new, it can become a 160 km / h (100 mph) cross country unit.

We are also developing a high speed train, which will utilise electric traction motors rather thanj hydraulic transmission coupled to mechanical drive. This will be based on the technology developed in China for the 270 km / h China Star product.

Both units will be designed in China, with heavy support from UK consultants.

[CSRZiyang]

The modern railways article was written by an employee of CSR Ziyang, IIRC.

Is is Chinese build quality that much worse than British/ European? In fact, there's very little european built stuff that fills me with with confidence regarding it's build quality. I'd never buy a French car, for example, as I want to actually get to my destination (my Dad's Peugeot has broken down again today). Or is that more symptomatic of the throwaway culture we seem to be developing?

Anyhow, just give the things electric transmission. And pantographs so they can run on electric power where wires exist...

Just to clarify, I am not an employee of CSR Ziyang. CSRE Limited, a Uk company which I am a director of, is the European representative of CSR Ziyang, but it has no shareholding in the company.

[CSRZiyang]

Why is this DIESEL marketed unit running along side an electrified line?

Alistair, this is simply the way the visuals were prepared... actually, it doesn't look dissimilar to the view over Stockport viaduct... also wired and with a multitude of diesel (hydraulic) multiple units passing over it every day.