RETURN OF THE 458s

carlwestwood · Post by **carlwestwood** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:45 am

Apparentlysix calss 458 junipers have re-entered service with south west trains after their destination boards were increased in size by 3mm!!??

How silly is that? I dont see how 3mm will effect reading " London Waterloo" or "Reading."

I still dont think they are good enough to do the job - they never seem reliable. i have been on one and it failed after 5 minutes of leaving Waterloo.
I say they need seriously looking at.

Carl

Elojikal · Post by **Elojikal** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:20 am

Travelling between Clapham Junction and Waterloo Friday week gone I did indeed see one. They're out there!

alexnick · Post by **alexnick** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:49 am

It's all about refranchising. I think most of the bidders, SWT included, want to do away with the 442s as their operating costs are too high. Therefore they want to reinstate the 458s to free up 450s, which in turn will cascade 444s onto all the Weymouth line fast services. The proposed withdrawal of the 458s is pretty much abandoned.

Nick

carlwestwood · Post by **carlwestwood** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:06 pm

that makes sense. I still dont think they are reliable enough

alexnick · Post by **alexnick** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:55 pm

Nope, they sure aren't. We'd be better off having the Mk1 EMUs back if they would have just let SWT fit them with central door locking.

Nick

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:40 pm

Nick - the Mark 1s were not withdrawn principally because of CDL, but because of Lord Hidden's enquiry into Clapham Jn. The Mk1s would have to be fitted with Cup-and-Cone (TPWS was only a temporary measure for the last year or so of operation). Just because they were reliable in one set of statistics does not necessarily mean they are any good, or that they meet the 21st century customer's expectations. Miles-per-Casualty is a bad way to measure reliability - even the engineers accept this, as a failure can be one which has six minutes of delay, or one which has sixty - MPC does not mark this difference.

It might be that the six Junipers will only remain in service until the 17 extra '450' Desiros arrive.

arabiandisco · Post by **arabiandisco** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:00 pm

I would have thought that the current major overhauls that the 442s are undergoing points towards keeping them. That's only what Stagecoach are up to, though. What Last, MTR or Arriva have planned is anyone's guess.

However, the traction gear under them is nearing 40 years in service, so they can't have that much longer to go.

458s can be made reliable - they ought to change the couplings, as apparently they are a major cause of "casualties". And of course they can't give a 450/whatever a shove if needed without an adapter. Even if SWT don't keep them, they should find a home. I'd send them to Southern, so the remaining 319s can be given to Last . Con. Gateaux already have 8001/2, I believe.

alexnick · Post by **alexnick** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:16 pm

Arabiandisco, I wasn't referring to just Stagecoach. I cannot state my sources, or my head will be on the chopping block, but you can presume the 442s are coming out of service with the refranchising.

Nick

Elojikal · Post by **Elojikal** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:19 pm

arabiandisco wrote:458s can be made reliable - they ought to change the couplings, as apparently they are a major cause of "casualties". And of course they can't give a 450/whatever a shove if needed without an adapter. Even if SWT don't keep them, they should find a home. I'd send them to Southern, so the remaining 319s can be given to Last . Con. Gateaux already have 8001/2, I believe.

"We" don't want them!

alexnick · Post by **alexnick** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:38 pm

Nor do "we"!

salopiangrowler · Post by **salopiangrowler** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:02 pm

shove a pantogroaph coach in the set 's an send em to Manchester, cant ber any worse up there.

Keelar001 · Post by **Keelar001** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:09 pm

Unreliable? I'll assume you're aware 458s are putting in more trouble-free mileage that our refurbed 455s?

There's nothing wrong with them, and they are now a better unit to drive than a Desiro. The only problem with them now is that they look very very tired internally.

Further juice upgrades will be needed to run the extra 17 Desiros, so don't be surprised if the 458 hang around for a lot longer.

Oh yes - a final thought; 455s have equipment beneath the solebar that was recovered from 4SUBs. 442 running gear will go for as long as it's required.

barrymcguire9999 · Post by **barrymcguire9999** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:11 pm

Slightly off topic but related to withdrawing southern region EMU's but I have heard a rumour that half (6) of the 508's with South Eastern are to be withdrawn/put into warm storage next month, any more info??? I do believe Merseytravel would like the return of "compatible" units as mentioned in the local transport plan, perhaps a return north maybe possible.

alexnick · Post by **alexnick** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:45 pm

458s are not good from a passenger perspective. Desiros are highly preferable! Surely stock is better adapted for passengers than drivers - poor stock will often force pasengers onto buses or back into cars.

Nick

chuxn2005 · Post by **chuxn2005** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:32 pm

I quite like Juniper's

Thought they were very modern and to a normal Passenger they would appaer very nice, that is until it failed