National Express merger with FirstGroup

[n863dwt]

The whole monopoly thing is a laod of ..

its just a way for the eu or uk government to dictate to us how we or how companies in our country may conduct their business...

i mean even aside from passenger services...
look at EWS getting complaints about monopolising coal movements...
why should 1 company be punished for providing a service that no one else can.

or in the case of FG and NX saying that they cant do it because it gives them a monopoly in the UK

[mattvince]

its just a way for the eu or uk government to dictate to us how we or how companies in our country may conduct their business...
...
or in the case of FG and NX saying that they cant do it because it gives them a monopoly in the UK

You misunderstand a monopoly. A monopoly is where the market is rigged such that there is one, and only one, provider of a product/service. The monopoly of bus services is apparent when only one operator serves any one place - passengers are faced with the option of using that operator or not using the bus, and if the bus is their only means of transport, then they are captive to that one operator. Which is the heart of the problem - as they are faced with the option of using the bus or not travelling at all, the operator has the ability to charge whatever the operator likes, knowing that the passengers have no other option. Therefore, it is the DUTY of Government to protect the general public from this abuse of power - hence anti-monopoly legislation exists to ensure that operators cannot come to any agreement which would result in a monopoly. The alternative is for Government to impose regulation on the bus industry to regulate fares at levels which are socially acceptable. The issue with railways is that there are often parallel bus routes, in many cases owned by the same group, so there is no competition and no driving down of fares, together with better quality of service.

You can decry anti-monopoly legislation, but in the end it is you and I who are being fleeced by giants like FirstGroup.

[slipdigby]

Whatever the Law may say does not apply if nothing is written down (hence no evidence exists). However, the single-operator dominance of each area (except Manchester)

Actually, it's pretty much just one route which as proper competition - the main student corridor along oxford road. Stray much from that and you find yourself mainly in single operator territory.

<pedant>Don't Bluebird run some journeys on the 17? Plus UK North's little venture on Saturdays on the 250. Plus there's the 263/135/36 competing with the tram </pedant>

The situation on Oxford Road/Wilmslow Road is farcical and getting worse. If the DfT want to stick with the current shambles, then they should allow a trial of renting kerb space to specific operators. How noone has been killed at Owens Park yet trying to find "their bus" in the maelstrom of diesel fumes and half a dozen double deckers jostling for a single bus stop is beyond me.

UK North have started running some route 192 which has caused a bit of a stir amongst stagecoach, but in the north of Manchester it's mainly first unchallenged.

Got to bob down to Heaton Chapel tonight. Options are SgM/UK North 192, or a Northern Rail 323. No prizes for guessing which one I'll be choosing.....

Workhorse to Thoroughbred anyone?

Slip

[AlanP46]

<pedant>Don't Bluebird run some journeys on the 17? Plus UK North's little venture on Saturdays on the 250. Plus there's the 263/135/36 competing with the tram </pedant>

I think Bluebird run a couple of peak services that serve the industrial park at Stakehill, Middleton but otherwise I haven't noticed any. Been a long time since I've caught a 17 though!

There's a few odd bits where routes join together: Rochdale - Milnrow (2 miles) has Stagecoach, Rossendale, Bu Val, and First all looking for passengers. But if you're going the otherway it all falls apart.

The bus can't compete against the train to Manchester, though if/when they finally plumb in the tram it'll have a good chance then since the tram stops 23 times between Rochdale and Manchester! We can all live in hope it never happens I guess...

Alan

[johncard]

Whatever the Law may say does not apply if nothing is written down (hence no evidence exists). However, the single-operator dominance of each area (except Manchester) is to all intents and purposes a cartel, agreed in smoky back rooms in pubs across the land - that's the way the industry operates - illegal as hell but as I said, no evidence! Prices are set at whatever they will get away with - take First Bristol - TWO 20% hikes in the space of less than a year. John Hibbs' advised policies have, in view of the evidence, failed.

Out of interest, if you took a high-demand urban route, could you break even by charging a very low amount per passenger - say, 10p - coupled with a conservative timetable and making up the rest with as much advertising as possible?

John

[salopiangrowler]

First have been trying t obuyout NEX in the bus market for years if they suceed with the trains the buses will be next.

[johncard]

Out of interest, if you took a high-demand urban route, could you break even by charging a very low amount per passenger - say, 10p - coupled with a conservative timetable and making up the rest with as much advertising as possible?

John

That was a stupid question wasn't it

John

[mattvince]

John - Theoretically it would be possible under the following preconditions:
- Low car ownership/availability, low probability of increasing car ownership
- passengers prepared to organise their time around the bus timetable
- very high-quality vehicles (no Metrobuses!)
- Absolute punctuality and reliability

[johncard]

But it was a stupid question. It's justified if the companies in question are profiteering from individuals who have no other choice, but at the same time I am sure those companies would be willing to operate free buses to retain the market. At the end of the day I am judging purely from what people on this board are telling me, from my own experience in York they are quite willing to let other companies run peripheral services which they never thought of operating themselves, likewise the numerous times I have caught the White Line park & ride to York on an evening (ie. when they are running every 30 mins) it has never been late once. They should just play legal, that's all.

John

[mattvince]

It is possible for a company to run certain services at low prices, if they have other routes which are significantly profitable, and if by attracting custom onto that 'low-fare' route, they can eventually get it to be financially sustainable on its own, then it's worth doing - what is known as a 'loss-leader'.

I'm of the opinion that the bus industry does need regulating - because it cannot attract the new entrants into an industry suffering from declining market share - in fact new entrants are merely undermining the existing operators, so deregulation is pretty much destroying itself. The only regulated area - London - is bucking the trend, partly because it is regulated, thus it is also integrated. Getting back to steel wheels, deregulation could be seen as being the reason why local authorities got interested in LRT - it put some public transport back in their control.

Speaking of FirstGroup, the way to upset Mr Lockhead's plans of world domination is to ruin their business cases. Open Access operator, anyone?

[eastern]

If FirstGroup takeover National Express it could renamed First Great Eastern from 'ONE' Railway?

[allypally]

Unlikely. More likely to be either kept as One, like Hull Trains was kept the same, or to be summat like First East Anglia.

[salopiangrowler]

First East Anglia sounds cool.

Perhaps First could sort out the Commuter problems out of liverpool street once and for all if they take it on as Liverpool street will be a one operator terminus like paddington (Minus it's HEX local and express trains)

[arabiandisco]

Liverpool St is currently a single operator station.

And I don't think it would be correct to say that First have "sorted out once and for all" the commuter services out of Paddington.

I expect any operator could work it out by recasting the timetable.

[mattvince]

Agreed - it's not a question of who owns the franchise, but how well they run it. Sadly FirstGroup seem to be too much of 'top-down' and not enough grass-roots management - add to that franchise deals which are tantamount to bribery, and which require drastic service cuts just to meet that amount of money, and it's easy to see why FirstGroup are almost universally despised - especially in the south-west. National Express have some bad eggs, but LondonLines (Silverlink and C2C) and Midland Mainline are pretty good.

FirstGroup are sorting out Paddington - make things so bad that no-one goes by train I'd like to know if First incorporated the reduction in service quality on the Bristol services when making their revenue estimates - or was that just another fudge to make the figures look good? In an ideal world, my journey on Thursday would have put no money into FirstGroup's hands, as it was solely by Virgin and SWT - yet in spite of my opinion that these are superior operators, FirstGroup will get a portion of my fare due to ORCATS not distinguishing between a grubby FGW 158 and a decent SWT one!