In 30 years time...

[AlistairW]

Although HST's still have a good 10 years in them yet (fingers crossed) they are clearly far more popular now with enthusiasts than they were when they were introduced. So, in 30 years time will we all be up in arms about the loss of our then beloved Voyagers and Meridians?

[codrivermike]

30 years eh? I just hope that I can hold out long enough to see them turned into scrap.

Actually, I have a soft spot for Voyagers. It's a bog up on Saddleworth Moor!!!

[vidal]

Alistair,

Very interesting topic, in some respects, yes the current stock will be mourned as it passes. All those people lamenting over the loss of the HST forget that there was another group lamenting the loss of the Deltics, Westerns and 50's. Before that it was the kettle brigade

The modern rail network may not have the variety that it did 30 years ago, but it is now providing more rail journies, faster journey times and (when you can get a seat!) - a better environment. Before the flamethrowers come for me I would appreciate it if the rose tinted glasses were removed. Dirty, noisy DMU's, no aircon, poor disabled access etc.

Loco hauled stock was better, but for the majority of passengers, getting from A to B meant travelling in a multiple unit. The railway is not run for the benefit of enthusiasts, but for the fare paying public who turn up day in, day out - not just when there is an interesting working, and then gripe that their shot has been spoilt by someone walking along the platform.

To sum up - as long as I get a seat, give me modern stock any day. I don't care what's on the front, or even if the windows line up - I'm paying good money to travel and I want to do that quickly and safely.

</rant>

James

[metromuppet]

The younger people being brought up now, will be used to the new trains, such as 377s, Voyagers, 390s ect. The younger people who are now into trains, will of cause miss the trains they where brought up with, taken on by their parents. When the 400's (slam door stock) left, even people who did not like trains enough to take much interest, where a little upset to see purhaps their first train they went on taken out of service and they will never see it again. Sounds stupid, but its the first train they went on, possably the first train they fell asleap on, in my case the first train which hit them in the face (someone opened the door onto my face ) and so forth. This trend will last through the generation of people, and trains.

[jpantera]

How about:

No cycle or parcels storage space.

Different couplings on every type of train which means a major farce erupts if one sits down somewhere.

Diesel trains running under overhead wires for the whole of their journey.

Disgusting smells on most trains due to faulty systems.

Annoying underfloor vibrations.

Availability having to be at 99% as accountants run the railway resulting in other trains being hired in with resultant extra staff training and hire costs.

Speaking to passengers who travel on our railtours, they always say how much more comfortable our trains are (most of our passengers are not enthusiasts).

[skipperdipper]

I'll miss the 507's when they go in a few years, replaced by probably 376's. Not the first train I wnet on (a 165 back in NSE days), but they take me to school and back every day and take me out at weekends. Just bring on the replacements so we can have some decent photographic subjects for once! Oh, and I was never really bothered about slammers, Desiros rule!

Rob

[chriscooper]

The modern rail network may not have the variety that it did 30 years ago, but it is now providing more rail journies, faster journey times and (when you can get a seat!) - a better environment. Before the flamethrowers come for me I would appreciate it if the rose tinted glasses were removed. Dirty, noisy DMU's, no aircon, poor disabled access etc.
James

You're asking for flames with statements like "rose tinted glasses" though, since a lot of you're arguments are no better. Dirtyness is totally irelavent to the type of stock, it's down to the operators to keep them clean. Many modern trains are in more dirty condition than a lot of old trains ever were, due to poor maintenance and cleaning and vandalism and lack of care from users. Noisy DMUs, well, the Voyagers and Meridiens arn't quiet, and they are used on services a hell of a lot longer than anything else that compeates. Also, quietness of trains is a funney thing when you consider the number of other noises modern trains make, from loud, long an regular auto announcements, to strange loud beeps. Lack of aircon, well, it's not a new thing on long distance services, and it often doesn't work or is set at a bad temperature (e.g too cold in the summer, to hot in the winter), and it's questionable whether recycled air is really healthy. As regards poor disabled acess, it's not like isabled people havn't been able to travel on older trains, and if railways shouldn't be run for a minority of enthusiasts, why should they be run for a minority of disabled people?

To sum up - as long as I get a seat, give me modern stock any day. I don't care what's on the front, or even if the windows line up - I'm paying good money to travel and I want to do that quickly and safely.

That's you're opinion, which many enthusiasts and normal users don't agree with. The bit about windows lining up is very subjective, since many normal users dislike that on moern trains. Anyway, you can travel quickly and safely on old stock aswell as modern stock.
Old stock had it's flaws, and new stock improves on some respects, but it's very far from perfect, and in many people's opinions it's a step backwards. I always remember when travelling on a preserved 1940s built class 306 that was being used on a normal service, and ordinary users getting on and saying how posh and nice it seemed compared to what they were used to, and that was a train designed for suburban use. Posh could no be used to describe any modern suburban train, and arguably any modern train.

[chriscooper]

Going back to the original post, yes, I think people will miss the modern stock when it goes. I think there are a lot of things though at the moment that enthusiasts are particularly sad about though. Firstly, the fact that so much stock being withdrawn but so little is being preserved. Just look at AC EMUs, where only 3 types are so far preserved. Also, with things like the SR Slammers, although some have been preserved, it's hard to imagine any working under their own power again, and it's very unlikely one will carry passengers on the mainline again. The lack of variety is a big issue aswell, with 6 main types dominating the network (Voyager/Meridien, Turbostar, Electrostar, Diesel and Electric Desiro and 66s). The age range of stock that has been withdrawn in such a short time is another issue (late 50s right through to late 80s). Another issue is the fact that so much stock with opening windows or better, droplights, has been withdrawn, and the majortiy of stock are sealed coffins. For this reason, I don't think the shock value for enthusiasts will be quite the same for withdrawals in the future. Afterall, I fail to see the Electrostars and Desiros all being withdrawn and nearly all scrapped within a matter of a few years.

[phat2003uk]

On the issue of air-con, can anything really beat having all the windows down on a hot summer's day with a cool breeze flowing through the coach ? Air con for me is just a bit too 'artificial'. At least with stock that has opening windows, you can control your environment to an extent.

[buffy500]

On the issue of air-con, can anything really beat having all the windows down on a hot summer's day with a cool breeze flowing through the coach ? Air con for me is just a bit too 'artificial'. At least with stock that has opening windows, you can control your environment to an extent.

Can you beat having warm air and dust and . and noise and vapourised wee coming in the window ?
I can.

Aircon is useless when its not working.
Just like opening windows are next to useless when stationary.

[arabiandisco]

Will some of this plastic last 30 years? I suppose we'll see, but aside from Desiros, none of the new stuff 'feels' well built enough to last that long. But whenever they go, there will be people mourning their loss - and no doubt complaining about the fossils at preserved lines who want to run their modernisation plan diesels rather than these old-new units!

As for units vs locos, it's horses for courses. Personally I think that Vomiters and their like are completely inappropriate for intercity services - I did Basingstoke - Derby in a vomiter and the noise and vibrations had driven me mad by Oxford. And Tamworth on the return journey. However, the (first gen particularly) units have kept open a lot of branch lines that were financially unsustainable with locos (not only the operational costs of the locos, but the infrastructure maintainance for the heavier stuff etc.) When they were first introduced (replacing steam) DMUs caused a vast increase in passengers on some routes.

Opening windows have never in my experience resulted in a cool breeze through the coach - perhaps in a VEP with all the droplights down you get a decent breeze, but nothing much else that I've been on... I'm no fan of AC, though. It uses too much power and frequently breaks - a sealed coffin with broken AC is a horrible place to be, especially in the summer.

[mattvince]

Will what is new be mourned when it is old? Almost certainly.

The trouble with these kind of threads is that they quickly become polarised between rose-tinted spectacle wearers, and those who insist on progress. Yes, 'old' stock can be 'nice' - but Clapham showed it is not suitable for today's main-line railway. Mk3s are comfortable, but always smack me as being somewhat dated.

And why is the Voyager always mentioned? It is accepted that it is not the paragon of design, but they do their job. Now if you talk about Desiros - a superb design for a suburban EMU.

The disabled issue is important, because they are a very vocal minority, and one with considerable support. Denying them the use of rail services is not the same as irritating a bunch of spotters. On the old Slammers, the only place for the wheelchair-bound was in a dirty, draughty luggage van - the new stock puts them in more comfortable surroundings with space for people accompanying them to sit. The loss of bicycle space is irrelevant in the age of the folding bicycle - and anyway, bikes should probably be banned on peak hour services. Parcels - irrelevant, Red Star doesn't exist.

If the railway were to be run by a bunch of spotters, then we'd have a disaster. In order to pay the cost of making the old new, fares would have to rise to extortionate levels. Subsidy would be politically unsustainable. In defence of the 'accountants' - the railways are a business, and must behave as such.

[jpantera]

To answer some points there:

Folding bikes are cr**, having been brought up in the 80s when we used to take a family of 4s bikes everywhere by rail(even 1st gen units had enough room for 6 bikes and proper ones at that) There goes more cars on the road instead.


Red Star could possibly be a viable business as trains do still run to places dont they? Anywhere there is a fairly decent service between 2 points is a possible way of sending parcels. Lets have more cars on the road again there!

Accountants NEVER take into account a unit fire or a technical fault that throws availablity into chaos even though virtually every type of train introduced in this country has had one type of farce or another. There are still locomotive hauled trains in North Wales which would not be needed if another couple of 175 units had been ordered.

I am not a spotter with a rose tinted view of things I my livelihood depends on providing a decent service to passengers on my tours who like to travel on a train that gives them a greater level of comfort than a 221 or 390.

[alexnick]

Change always provokes a positive reaction from entusiasts. Thorughout my lifetime, people have cmplained about the old Mk1 based EMUs, and now they have suddenly become lamented when they were taken out of service. I sort of miss them, but I was also really excited to see the new 444s/450s, which are undeniably much more comfortable. Admittedly, I always like electric traction, and the older the better, in my view, so I am sort of sorry to see quite a lot of classes disappear (especially WCML locomotives like the 86s and Gatwick 73s).

[Keelar001]

Will what is new be mourned when it is old? Almost certainly.

The trouble with these kind of threads is that they quickly become polarised between rose-tinted spectacle wearers, and those who insist on progress. Yes, 'old' stock can be 'nice' - but Clapham showed it is not suitable for today's main-line railway. Mk3s are comfortable, but always smack me as being somewhat dated.

And why is the Voyager always mentioned? It is accepted that it is not the paragon of design, but they do their job. Now if you talk about Desiros - a superb design for a suburban EMU.

The disabled issue is important, because they are a very vocal minority, and one with considerable support. Denying them the use of rail services is not the same as irritating a bunch of spotters. On the old Slammers, the only place for the wheelchair-bound was in a dirty, draughty luggage van - the new stock puts them in more comfortable surroundings with space for people accompanying them to sit. The loss of bicycle space is irrelevant in the age of the folding bicycle - and anyway, bikes should probably be banned on peak hour services. Parcels - irrelevant, Red Star doesn't exist.

If the railway were to be run by a bunch of spotters, then we'd have a disaster. In order to pay the cost of making the old new, fares would have to rise to extortionate levels. Subsidy would be politically unsustainable. In defence of the 'accountants' - the railways are a business, and must behave as such.

Matt and I have had some discussion quite publically in the past on this topic, but I'm forced to argree with him utterly; enthusiasm doesn't pay the bills. And elderly rolling stock, no matter what various anoraks might think, is scrapped for a reason. Business runs the railway now, and whilst I agree that money shouldn't always be the only concern when making decisions, in todays world of high-pressure and high-cost, money will and should always lead.

A socially-focused railway can only be sustained and funded by central government; as long as we retain the franchsie and "for-profit" motivation, acountants and the bottom line will always win.

Oh - and Desiros aren't the best design for an EMU - at least, not the version that South Western ordered. Like every, the spec was pared to the bone to keep initial costs down. That's why, for example, the doors are belt-drive rather than worm-screw driven. In five to ten years the fleet maintenance costs will start to rise as the "under-engineering" rears its ugly head.