Another RHDR Accident

[Riche]

Thinking about it, is the line techincaly restricted to 25mph? This line was never BR owned, has no MK1 carriages (On which the restrictions kick in above 25mph) and is privately owned.

[allypally]

To be honest, its only because the RH&DR is such a small guage railway that things like this actually cause serious problems. If a car ran into the side of a 66 or a HST, then I would expect very minimal damage to the train, due to the robustness of the construction (exepting Ufton Nervet, where a few nasty cirumstances combined to create a disaster, and Great Heck where the train a fully loaded freight). Evidence for this includes where that Pacer got hit by an 86, the 86 was totally unscathed, the Pacer was trashed. It all depends on size and construction. In actuality, like it or not, I believe it is legally the responsibility of the railway to ensure the safety of road/rail crossings. Whereas on the RH&DR the trains are smaller than the cars in question, if you hit something, you have far less of a safety case, including the lack of a huge strong cab and superstructure.

[BR7MT]

Trains travel at 25 mph on the RH&DR and they slow down for each level crossing to about half that. Any slower and the steam engine would use more steam in a day to get the train back up to speed, thus massively increasing coal and water consumption.

Most of the level crossings have a white flashing light that tells the train driver that the red warning lights are functioning properly.

There are 13 level crossings on the railway and if you put barriers up at one then all would have to have them fitted because as soon as there is an accident at one of those crossings without barriers then the HSE will will start asking questions.

Sadly I met Danny Martin during my Railway Experience Course at the line back in December. He had only been in the job two years and had been involved in the Southall train crash investigation. He had already tightened up emergency procedures at the line including how they operate trains over the level crossings.

I think jbilton that you should stay quiet from now on. You obviously do not understand the situation on Romney Marsh and are therefore not able to comment on it.

We live in an age where people think being able to drive a car is a God-given right. It is not. Being allowed to drive a car is a privilage, and the sooner people start realising it then the safer our roads will be.

Dan

[jbilton]

I think jbilton that you should stay quiet from now on. You obviously do not understand the situation on Romney Marsh and are therefore not able to comment on it.


Dan

Hi Dan
Its a good job its got nothing to do with you then mate.
But thanks for your less than valued opinion.
Some people here are looking for solutions, not to just cast blame on one group or another.
Cheers
Jon

[BluebellStepney]

I agree with Dan's post, and ask people to remember that the RH&DR Locos, at a (1/3) scale speed over the crossings probably travel at around 30-35mph.

In order to "protect" the crossings with gates, the RH&DR are being asked to protect it's drivers against inattentive road traffic - protecting the vehicle drivers from themselves and harming others. All in my opinion, of course.

Tom

[dkightley]

Instead of barriers, raising road blockers should be installed on all level crossings. Something like this:



These should stop any accident involving trains.....but might flatten a few car front-ends!

[trainmad]

These should stop any accident involving trains.....but might flatten a few car front-ends!

Better than a lost life though.

[MuzTrem]

Another tragic accident.
As regards the idea of slowing trains down on crossings-they used to go slower than they do now before the lights were installed in the 70's...and fatal accidents still happened.
The fault lies completley with the car driver; it's obvious. On the BBC on pub owner said:

The relative inexperience of drivers from outside the area with this type of level crossing means it is an accident waiting to happen

That's ridiculous! If more car drivers were able to understand the simple instruction "when the lights flash, stop" there wouldn't be a problem! Some car drivers just seem to think that they're the most important people in the world-just come to South Bucks and watch mothers hurrying their children home from school and you'll see what I mean. Tehy don't care about anyone else, they just want to get from A to B as quickly as possible.
The only complete solution would be to tear up our road network and force everyone to go by train (which wouldn't be a bad idea IMO!). Until then, they will always be some, probably many, idot drivers who still cannot understand simple instrcutions, accidents like this are always going to happen once in a while.
I hope the driver in this case gets a harsher sentance than the last one. Say a few years in jail at least. Maybe then people in Romney will understand.

[jbilton]

Hi
Something I thought about, after reading Allypally's thread.
What if the trains pushed 2 ballasted trucks in front.
These would then hopefully push any obstacles off the tracks and the train would hopefully stay on the rails.
This wouldn't stop accidents, but it may stop them being fatals.
I'm sure there are I'm sure lots of other things that could and should be done.But the lights are simply not the solution.
Cheers
Jon

[GavinW]

I think jbilton that you should stay quiet from now on. You obviously do not understand the situation on Romney Marsh and are therefore not able to comment on it.

Best thing said on this thread!

[Nvincer]

Hi All
I think that a lot of it is caused by a lack of 'respect' to the 15 inch guage locos. People think that because they are little and so are a lot smaller than their std gauge partners that they can't damage or injure people. I stood on Dymchurch platform late last year and watched a whole family of about 5 or 6 people run across the tracks with a train probrably 10m away - and that is only at a station!
A 10 ton train is no joke and that is the thing that drivers who jump the lights have to learn. I hope that the two accidents in the last two years send out a clear message to all drivers who wish to jump the lights at level crossings on the Romney and other lines in the same situation.
It not only causes a lot of business trouble but as was seen yesterday can tear lives and families apart.

Bubble

[RobertM]

One thing that could be done would be too installl those trip laser's that count how many times they are broken, if these are installed on either side of the crossing, then if the number of times they are broken on one side match up with the other side, then the crossings are declared clear and then the train can pass...

But if the numbers don't match up, say 10 tripped one counter & the other counter only counted 8, then the crossings would be classed as obstructed and the train would be stopped...

It isn't perfect, but any safty system has floors in it

RobertM

[dikkidee]

Hi all,

I have read this post with interest and a great sadness for the deceased person and her family to whom I send my utmost and devout condolences.

What are my qualifications for writing the following.

1. An intimate knowledge of the Romney Marsh, its roads and people.

2. A lifelong interest in the RHDR.

3. I am a Traffic Manager for the local Police Force for thearea concerned, dealing every day with Road Safety and Roads Policing issues.

OK here goes:

The crossing in question is open with a totally unobstructed view across the shingle flatlands of Dungeness. You can see the train coming from well over a mile away.

The the location of the crossing is only about a mile or so from the terminus at Dungeness, which can be seen from the crossing, it is on a rising gradient from the station therefore there is no way the train would be travelling anywhere near 25 MPH I doubt if it would have been doing 12 - 15 MPH at that point.

There is a prevalent attitude on the Romney Marsh of that it is "Only a little slow train, its fair dinkum to beat it over the crossing, no one ever stops for them".

As BR7MT said "It is a priveledge to drive in this country not a right" strange - that the second person who has said that to me today and how right they are. You need to pass a driving test, the roads do not belong to the public they belong to the government, If people cannot act responsibly at level crossngs, or recklessly kill peopple whatever the circumstances and the courts of this country cannot find the heart to deal with these offenders effectively then the Government should legislate that any person found guilty for jumping a level crossing would incur a statutory long driving ban, and I mean long years not months. After all it took this to deal with the menace of drink driving because judges and magistrates were incapable of giving proper sanctions to deter would be offenders.

No I do not agree with J BIlton, although I must admit on most things I generally do, however on this occasion I cannot. I know the nature of the Marsh and the attitude towards these crossings on it.

One other thing in the main these are small mostly single track country roads on which vehicles should not be driving at excessive speeds anyway and because of the mere fact they are country roads national policy is that traffic calming cannot and will not be installed on them by the Highways Authority.

At the end of the day I think all that can be said to a potential crossing jumper is ++What part of STOP did'nt you understand++ perhaps they just don't lke the colour red.

I do not like to say this but I can see this problem being the downfall of the RHDR through absolutely no fault of its own.

Finally it was mentioned about the RHDR's resposibility towards its workers under Health and Safety. These crossings have been risk assessed by several bodies and passed as safe. Red lights, white lights for the train confirming correct functioning of the crossing lights,warning whistles of approach, speed reduction for the train. Under the risk assessment I would say all has been done to minimise the risk to Railway employees. The next thing would be to cease running trains at all and I say that with a very heavy heart.

I rather think that because of a few irresponsible, impatient and ignorant people we could well lose the RHDR>

Dick.

[UKTRAINSIM]

Well said sir.

Anyway, from the looks of it, this motorist has more chance of serving a jail sentance. The previous one only got off lightly because she had a child which needed care.

[Christopher125]

Hi
Something I thought about, after reading Allypally's thread.
What if the trains pushed 2 ballasted trucks in front.
These would then hopefully push any obstacles off the tracks and the train would hopefully stay on the rails.
This wouldn't stop accidents, but it may stop them being fatals.
I'm sure there are I'm sure lots of other things that could and should be done.But the lights are simply not the solution.
Cheers
Jon

Do you really think thats a solution? If you think thats a good idea, then obviously the next best step would be to close the railway completely thereby eliminating all risk Do you really think people woudn't mind if there train was pushing wagons of ballast in front?
The problem is the attitude of the local people - the camera at burmarsh needs to be replicated at all the other crossings and prosecutions persued vigorously. Installing AHB's wouldn't solve anything - after a few months the local residents would just end up zig-zagging them.

Chris