Are the Junipers going to Silverlink?

Elojikal · Post by **Elojikal** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:18 pm

Sorry to be pedantic...but the Brighton Belle service will never likely run again.

And it called at Victoria! London Bridge was the City Limited!

Keelar001 · Post by **Keelar001** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:23 pm

Oh, being a pedantic . is fine - always happy to stand corrected! In that case, we'll run two departures from Brighton within ten minutes every weekday morning; one to Vic and one to the 'Bridge.

So that means two sets for the morning Up Limiteds, plus a hot spare on standby and four other sets to cover the off-peak services. Should be do-able! I'll start writing cheques now, shall I?!

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:14 am

The guesstimate timings for a 'Brighton Belle' depend on a 52-minute schedule with a 23-minute turnaround at both ends (ROTP requires 12 minutes) - the most efficient timetable would have departures at xx00/xx30 from Victoria, and xx15/xx45 from Brighton. Platforming at Victoria isn't an issue - one dedicated platform would suffice: GEx uses two, IIRC. That equates to five unit diagrams. Ideally, with an 88% availability (7 of 8 ), that gives two extras to work Peak-Hour reliefs, then one stables at Stewarts Lane (hot spare for failure), the other heads to Gatwick (mid-route hot spare, relief for mid-morning flight arrivals). The 8th gets 16 hours of being pampered by Stewarts Lane - rotate all the sets on a daily basis (2 in works on Sundays?), that ought to keep them going. If one of the hot spares are to be used, then maybe an out-and-back mid-day Eastboune/Hastings? It would also free up a couple of Class 377s from Brighton Line services to strengthen elsewhere. If BAA aren't happy about losing the Express, then it would easily be possible to add a few minutes longer dwell at Gatwick to help passengers with heavy luggage. Apart from the cost of adding the extra coaches, adding the kitchenette for FC, and bike rack, and generally tarting-up for the new role: this is sounding like a plan.

Elojikal · Post by **Elojikal** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:21 am

You'd be suprised. It's a common occurrence for a train to have to wait outside of Victoria waiting for a platform to become free, especially in the peaks.

The current incarnation of the Brighton "Express" is 52 minutes including stop at Clapham. The Brighton Express/Capital Coast Express that ran until Southern took over was 49 minutes sans Clapham and stopping only at East Croydon. A 377 or 458 capable of 100mph running (what pointless little of it there is on the Brighton Mainline) could probably do a modern day Brighton Belle working of no stops in just under 45 minutes. But you can sure as hell bet it'd never be able to do so for other traffic getting in it's way.

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:52 am

The trouble comes with timetables which just aren't workable. The current Southern timetable is based on the 1984 Gatwick Express base, this effectively ties down the entire line and dictates the rest of the service pattern. Abolish the Gatwick Express and replace it with a Brighton Belle service (possibly calling Clapham or East Croydon, and Gatwick) and you have the flexibility to do a once-in-a-generation recast which solves as many problems in one go as possible. Southern are planning something big for December '06, but still faces the Gatwick Express problem. 48-minute schedules would be nice (with one stop at Gatwick) - this saves another diagram, makes both end departures at xx00/xx30, but doesn't have as much recovery (down to ROTP minimum 12 minutes), and may need more 100mph sections. Sticking to existing timings would probably work better. Gatwick Express will only ever play second-fiddle to Heathrow Express, and as a result, a West Anglia Dec-2005 approach is possibly superior.

There is also the local rivalry - Ashford is getting high-speed trains into Central London: reintroducing the 'Belle' would appease Brighton.

Keelar001 · Post by **Keelar001** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:52 am

OK gentlemen, thus far we have our plan for rolling stock and a sketchy running plan.

I would thoroughly support binning the Gat Ex service; no more flat movements across all roads to accomodate Gat Ex and strengthening Brighton's high speed links to the cpaital. 100mph running should be possible, although I would suggest we consider acceleration more than top speed. One thing that Junipers win on is sheer grunt from a stand; they will pull almost as hard as a Desiro from a stand and do it with less motors. Not sure how they compare against a 375, but I would put money on there not being much between it. A published 50-minute passenger timetable with a 48-minute operational table would build a little robustness into the workings. That extra two minutes could make the difference at Vic if a service is stuck waiting for a platform.

I would be reluctant to base the trains at Stewie Lane unless we could have a dedicated three road, twelve car shed with a wheel lathe and comprehensive stores facility on-site. One thing that the Junipers have proved at Wimbledon is that unless you have a decent amount of stores ready to hand your units are going to spend a lot of time waiting for bits and pieces. Oh yes, and two re-engined Class 73 ED's with at least 1000 horse available "off the juice" and 2000 "on" - one a Brighton is case of a total failure which needs to be hauled out sharpish and another at Stewie Lane for shunting stock.

Right, and we need now is about four hundred staff and someone with a very large cheque book... any takers?!

Elojikal · Post by **Elojikal** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:37 pm

Matt, I think you're missing the point. The "Brighton Belle" service was a non-stop service between Brighton and Victoria with luxury furnishings and at table service that only ran a handful of times each day to serve a mostly exclusive bunch of season ticket holding well off commuters who infamously liked their kippers. A service that stops at Gatwick, East Croydon and Clapham is not the basis of a new Brighton Belle service nor is it going to attract the same clientele (sp?) nor would it even be finacially viable in this day and age when BR already considered it no longer finacially viable back in 1972! They won't even stick buffets on the Brighton Mainline anymore!

As for all plans for a reform of Brighton Express stopping at Gatwick that includes East Croydon and Clapham be they SRA or from posters here, as a Brightonian I have this to say; No No No No No and No.

A Gatwick Express service extended to Brighton and including just Brighton, Gatwick and Victoria as its stops could work... ...could...

But if you add in East Croydon and Clapham then it's basically a fight between stressed commuters, fed up leisure travellers who thought rail travel was better these days and holidaymakers laden with luggage and students with backpacks bigger than them! It's already a problem on the Thameslink services at times with peoples luggage blocking the doorways and people wanting to get off trying to squeeze past people with backpacks. I am telling you it is not fun. Not in the least bit. In fact it's a downright frustrating experience falling over somebody elses suitcase. It can even lead to ill-tempered arguments between passengers. That's not the future of rail travel my friends.

There are always grumblings about the GatEx around here. Unjustified in my opinion. A lot of people probably wonder why it exists and don't see the point of a service that caters to only one market. It exists for a very good reason - to keep holidaymakers out of the way of commuters. It's basically a glorified taxi service. And it works. It has been a success and has been copied around the world as a model of how to provide rail links to airports. So why kill it just because it doesn't fit in with some peoples idealogical ideas of what the railways should be about? I think all that needs to be done is to reform the service a bit so that it maybe only runs three times an hour and perhaps two during times when there is less custom coming off the planes at Gatwick.

Class 458s - well personally I don't like the MK4 "coffin" shape with it's restricted internal space. Be interesting seeing those lining up at Brighton though...

mattvince · Post by **mattvince** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:08 pm

Elojikal wrote:Matt, I think you're missing the point. The "Brighton Belle" service was a non-stop service between Brighton and Victoria with luxury furnishings and at table service that only ran a handful of times each day to serve a mostly exclusive bunch of season ticket holding well off commuters who infamously liked their kippers. A service that stops at Gatwick, East Croydon and Clapham is not the basis of a new Brighton Belle service nor is it going to attract the same clientele (sp?) nor would it even be finacially viable in this day and age when BR already considered it no longer finacially viable back in 1972! They won't even stick buffets on the Brighton Mainline anymore!

As for all plans for a reform of Brighton Express stopping at Gatwick that includes East Croydon and Clapham be they SRA or from posters here, as a Brightonian I have this to say; No No No No No and No.

A Gatwick Express service extended to Brighton and including just Brighton, Gatwick and Victoria as its stops could work

You misunderstand me: East Croydon and Clapham were only ever suggested as possible stops in certain trains - it would cost about 2-3 minutes over going straight through. Gatwick would be a compulsory stop, with extra dwell for airport passengers with luggage. Passive provision for stops at East Croydon or Clapham Jn should be written in the schedules - both are important interchanges with other services. There are possible fudges - the option of (like Virgin West Coast with Watford Jn) making Clapham a Set-Down in the Up direction/Pick-Up in the Down, thereby keeping the interchange into SWT services, but 'encouraging' Clapham Jn passengers to take other services into Victoria. Slotting the 'Belle' to arrive immediately after another Up Victoria service has just left will mean the preceding service has swept up (nearly) all the passengers. The same could be done at East Croydon. In terms of the market being targetted - I think we can all agree that Brighton & Hove are a City, hence the Brighton Belle forms an 'Inter-City' standard of service: the use of the name 'Brighton Belle' does not mean a full-on Pullman service, but something distinctly better than what is offered at present. I'd imagine the FC kitchenette would serve a range of hot sandwiches, panninis, salads and other "light bites", possibly a 'Small English' (or even Kippers) on AM Peak Hour trains, and a wider selection of beverages and snacks, than is possible with a trolley service. Whether 'Southern' monogrammed plates, cups and glasses are used is another matter - it would add that touch of 'panache', but would need to be carefully costed.

There are always grumblings about the GatEx around here. Unjustified in my opinion. A lot of people probably wonder why it exists and don't see the point of a service that caters to only one market. It exists for a very good reason - to keep holidaymakers out of the way of commuters. It's basically a glorified taxi service. And it works. It has been a success and has been copied around the world as a model of how to provide rail links to airports. So why kill it just because it doesn't fit in with some peoples idealogical ideas of what the railways should be about? I think all that needs to be done is to reform the service a bit so that it maybe only runs three times an hour and perhaps two during times when there is less custom coming off the planes at Gatwick.

An irregular Gatwick Express schedule does not help anything - particularly for the passenger, and will also require a total recast between what Gatwick Express considers it's Peak - which is certain to not match Southern's Peak. An irregular pattern becomes both a performance risk - confusing traincrew, station staff and signallers - and means you end up having to have irregular timetables across Southern's network - as I said before, the Gatwick Express sets the LBSC timetable, everything works around that. Also - air-travel is notorious for delays - if the morning arrival of Red-Eyes from the USA is delayed by winds, then you end up with two trains an hour doing the work of 3, 4 or even more. There is a slight rise in the number of Gatwick Express Season holders - which means it is more than just an airport link - it's picking up high-value commuters, too. It has to be said though, that the Brighton Line must not be seen to be stopping at Gatwick, with a lesser standard of service from then on. Giving Brighton an equal-quality link into Gatwick would further encourage economic growth in the Brighton area.

Keelar001 · Post by **Keelar001** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:00 am

Update from Wimbledon Park - the place where it all happens. Well, anything to do with trains anyway....

No more official diagrams for 458s as of 01-01-2006.

They will be finding work but it may not be on the Reading road...

joea1 · Post by **joea1** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:05 pm

I asked a friendly lady at Reading, she hadn't been informed that the 458s were ceasing duties, but she did explain about the corridors, guards etc. In my opinion, they're too good for Reading services, they should go on Alton, Basingstoke slows and replace 450s on the Portsmouth route. Let's face it, they have better seats and I prefer them to the 450s.

Keelar001 · Post by **Keelar001** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:53 pm

A further naughty update - ghost diagrams for 10 units as of 01.01.2006. In real english this means if (for if read "when") Siemens can't provide a unit to cover a diagram, 458's will leap into the breach.

And probably fail, but hey... The good news is that this could well mean Junipers finding their way to places other than Reading. A few gallops down the Main to Basingstoke, or even Southampton. Could be fun.

Another little nugget - Siemens wanted to fit Alstom traction equipment to the Desiros. After the drama at Surbiton a few days back, it's a bloody shame they didn't ask about the brake modules as well.

1288gaje · Post by **1288gaje** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:30 pm

Keelar001 wrote:A further naughty update - ghost diagrams for 10 units as of 01.01.2006. In real english this means if (for if read "when") Siemens can't provide a unit to cover a diagram, 458's will leap into the breach.

And probably fail, but hey... The good news is that this could well mean Junipers finding their way to places other than Reading. A few gallops down the Main to Basingstoke, or even Southampton. Could be fun.

Another little nugget - Siemens wanted to fit Alstom traction equipment to the Desiros. After the drama at Surbiton a few days back, it's a bloody shame they didn't ask about the brake modules as well.

i do hope that will appen more frequently!

Junipers will probably need Dellners rather than Tightlock couplers
I rather see Junipers go back to Alton and Basingstoke

joea1 · Post by **joea1** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:39 pm

Personally I think Junipers are better than 450s. I e-mailed SWT about a week ago hoping to get 458 timings for last Saturday. I got this e-mail today

.

Thank you for your email of 05 December 2005.

South West Trains are still using the Class 458 trains. From the
timetable change Class 458 trains are only diagramed Monday to
Fridays. They may work on Saturdays but they are not diagramed to
work.

The following trains from Waterloo to Reading are due to be
operated by Class 458, 0550, 0620, 0650, 0920, 0950, 1020, 1250,
1320, 1350, 1620, 1650, 1720, and 2020. From Reading to Waterloo
the following trains are operated by Class 458, 0742, 0812, 0842,
1112, 1142, 1212, 1442, 1512, 1542, 1842 and 2212.

Thank you for contacting South West Trains with your enquiry.