Are the Junipers going to Silverlink?

[mattvince]

smila14 - you joined just because of one mention of the quality (or lack thereof) of engineering at Washwood Heath? Jeez, can't even take a joke.

As to vans - there are plenty of other vans on the market, by the likes of Mercedes-Benz, Fiat, etc. Metrobuses are horrible pieces of rancidity now, even Optare of Leeds can build a better bus - probably why they're still going, and MCW are not. It is a tragic tale, of how incompetance by management and staff destroyed MetroCammell by not offering anything operators (train or bus) actually wanted, at the quality they were prepared to accept, at the price they were prepared to pay. The operators simply did the sensible thing of going and asking someone else like Bombardier or Siemens.

And before you say anything more - I live in Birmingham, and don't particularly like the place either.

[Elojikal]

DONT BE TAKING THE PI$$ OUT OF "BRUMMIES", WE ALSO MAKE LDV VANS AND THERE ONE OF THE BEST SELLING VANS IN EUROPE AND THE ONLY VAN TO COMPETE WITH THE FORD TRANSIT, METRO CAMMEL ALSO MADE GOOD BUSES WHICH ARE STILL ON THE ROAD NOW THE MCW METROBUS 20 YEARS ON, THE METRO CAB ALSO.

You obviously don't make very good keyboards up there.

[buffy500]

To be fair, LDV vans are nothing like as good as a Transit.
Maybe from an operators point of view, but from a drivers point of view they are not even in the same ballpark.
Hideous nasty things, sorry.

[lynnfizzy]

smila14 - you joined just because of one mention of the quality (or lack thereof) of engineering at Washwood Heath? Jeez, can't even take a joke.

As to vans - there are plenty of other vans on the market, by the likes of Mercedes-Benz, Fiat, etc. Metrobuses are horrible pieces of rancidity now, even Optare of Leeds can build a better bus - probably why they're still going, and MCW are not. It is a tragic tale, of how incompetance by management and staff destroyed MetroCammell by not offering anything operators (train or bus) actually wanted, at the quality they were prepared to accept, at the price they were prepared to pay. The operators simply did the sensible thing of going and asking someone else like Bombardier or Siemens.

And before you say anything more - I live in Birmingham, and don't particularly like the place either.

There's more to the demise of MetCam than the quality of their stuff, staff or management. The main reason why the firm was broken up and sold is becuase their then owner, Vickers, wanted rid of what they saw as a non-core business. The rail side was sold to GEC, but no buyer could be found for the bus side as a going concern mainly because deregulation had virtually dried up orders for volume bus manufacture to continue - their only minibus, the MetroRider, was doing quite well but did suffer some reliability issues, probably due to proper design investmnet by an owner who was trying to sell the firm off. The MetroBus double decker, whilst suffering from body droop in later years, was well regarded and lasted with LT as long as the more expensive and heavily engineered Titan which wasn't such a sales success, so the MetroBus can't have been such a dog. The fact they still can be found on punishing city services (just) in Birmingham, despite the abuse TWM drivers with their on-off driving technique throw at them daily, shows they were well designed for the most part, rear end bodywork excepting.

Ironically Optare bought the rights to the MetroRider and were able to overcome the MCW model's shortcomings, and the Spectra double decker uses a lot of MetroBus technology and design, coupled with Alusuisse contruction to give a more robust body design, which shows that the basic designs were actually quite good, it's probably just the case the parent company was more interested in getting rid of the firm than spending money on R&D and quality control.

On the rail side, I know people who used to work for GEC pre Alst(h)om and before it took over Met-Cam, and they said the workers used to say the initials stood for "Get Everything Cheap", something which sadly seems to have taken over at Washwood Heath. Again, historically their previous products have been well engineered and long lived - LT tube trains, for which they were pretty much the sole producer for many years, and I doubt LT would have kept coming back for more if they didn't work or were over priced, the Class 101 DMU, which was one of the most numerous and successful of the heritage DMU fleet, and lasted for over forty years without too much bother, and many hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of export stock around the world. Again, the rot only really set in when GEC and Alsthom merged and the conglomerate became predominantly French influenced simply because at the time the French side was busy building new stock, but Britain's railways had stopped train orders because of privatisation. Washwood Heath has been operating with the threat of closure for many years (even when it was assembling Eurostar kits, and I was able to get a works visit to the site, there was a lot of pessimism), and I expect that staff morale just dropped , with consequent knock on effects on their product quality. That's not incompetance, it's human nature.

[smila14]

smila14 - you joined just because of one mention of the quality (or lack thereof) of engineering at Washwood Heath? Jeez, can't even take a joke.

.

I can take a joke actually, i just dont like birmingham being the "butt" of jokes.

[buffy500]

Ah, the old "its funny as long its not about 'me'"

[joea1]

Ah, the old "its funny as long its not about 'me'"

You can say that again. I wonder if anybody will build the Class 35 Desiro he/she is requesting

[Keelar001]

The Junipers were cheap; horrendously so. The quality of the relays behind the equipment panels is attrocious, the standard of seating, the way the cab was put together, the design was rushed through and built to a price. The whole thing reeks of excessive amounts of Cheap.

Which is a bloody shame; these things should be looking far better than they do after only six years of work. SWT have given up on them; the interiors have had no work done to them since introduction. Why should passengers have to tolerate such a run-down piece of rolling stock too and from work every day? Why should the staff have to put up with trying to provide a service with equipment that the company knows is unreliable?

I enjoy driving them, always have - they are a challenge when something goes wrong and you have to know your stuff to get them to play nicely. But as a passenger, if I had to tolerate the accomodation on a daily basis I'd start looking at buying a comfortable car or travelling to work with another TOC.

[Mole259]

The Junipers were cheap; horrendously so. The quality of the relays behind the equipment panels is attrocious, the standard of seating, the way the cab was put together, the design was rushed through and built to a price. The whole thing reeks of excessive amounts of Cheap.

Which is a bloody shame; these things should be looking far better than they do after only six years of work. SWT have given up on them; the interiors have had no work done to them since introduction. Why should passengers have to tolerate such a run-down piece of rolling stock too and from work every day? Why should the staff have to put up with trying to provide a service with equipment that the company knows is unreliable?

I enjoy driving them, always have - they are a challenge when something goes wrong and you have to know your stuff to get them to play nicely. But as a passenger, if I had to tolerate the accomodation on a daily basis I'd start looking at buying a comfortable car or travelling to work with another TOC.

Agreed, the interior of one i came back on a little while back was horrible and dirty. And the train was in a bad way too.

When braking the motor sometimes when beserk and the motor sound suddenly sped up and slowed down, it was very bad, especially for me a passenger very jumpy.

I guess it terminated at about half journey so it could be taken out of service.

[Keelar001]

The sound of "high-low" motor noise under braking is wheel slide; the units use a blend of rheostatic and Electro-pneumatic disc braking above 15mph (I think it's 15 - might be a touch lower). The trouble is they are so light that this can cause an axle to lock, especially in low-adhesion conditions, and the WSP computers can't keep up with the locking. You may well have heard other noises - fast hisses of compressed air from under the floor would a sure sign of WSP grabing and releasing the offending axle. 458's are the only type to unit I've ever had "lock up" entirely on me - lots of noise and no loss of speed. Scary stuff when you're approaching buffers. You want to stop before them, the train decides the car park on the other side of the hedge is more attractive....

Hence the reason that, more often than not, the 458's sound like pile-drivers - in that situation you stick the brake handle in emergency and bring the train to a stand.

It may well have been that the flats grew so severe that the driver requested permission to withdraw the unit from service. After a day on the Reading road they can arrive back on the yard with wheels like 50p bits. I'd be interested to know when your journey was and when, though - curious to know what the exact nature of the fault was.

[mattvince]

Class 35 Desiro - West Coast Maybach-powered EMU with Mekydro transmission? Now THAT I want to see!

Birmingham is the butt of some jokes, Liverpool others - hell, where I hail from, you're 'expected' to be an inbred Wurzel Gummage type who be proud of that there combyne 'arvestar - needless to say I am not. Ooh argh.

With horror stories like that Keelar, It's no wonder SWT want rid of the damn things. I've tried one once, and found it okay, averagely better than some trains, but nothing special. Desiros are in a different league. It'd be interesting to compare the three Juniper fleets (SWT, Scotrail, Gatwick Express) - I'd imagine GEx would get better reliability out of a small fleet of Class 460s with dedicated staff. It does seem a shame that the bozos at the SRA thought wise to be rid of trains, who on appearance only (if nothing else), scream 'Express!'. If extended to 10/12 cars (using rebuilt Class 458 MS vehicles), and properly appointed for the service, then they would be ideal as a 21st century 'Brighton Belle' unit - complete with kitchenette and monster bike-rack in the DMFL. The small fleet size wouldn't be a problem - it will only take 5 units to run a half-hourly service to Brighton. The 'spare' Class 458 3-cars could then go to Scotrail as Class 358s.

[Keelar001]

If extended to 10/12 cars (using rebuilt Class 458 MS vehicles), and properly appointed for the service, then they would be ideal as a 21st century 'Brighton Belle' unit - complete with kitchenette and monster bike-rack in the DMFL. The small fleet size wouldn't be a problem - it will only take 5 units to run a half-hourly service to Brighton. The 'spare' Class 458 3-cars could then go to Scotrail as Class 358s.

Now that's a fantastic idea.... maybe class 459. Bulled up, full 2+2 seating in the leading eight cars, then 2+1 seating in the rear 4. Full at-seat service for first class and a hot buffet and trolley service for the rest of the train. A diesel aux. generator pack in one DMO to run the auxilliaries and help save the traction power and reduce access charges. 240v power points at all seats, Wi-Fi internet available, complimentary newspapers - all the treatment for Standard passengers that First Class would normally get, and First Class given a real pampering. Small group of dedicated staff, all units based at one dedicated depot; create a small group workforce who know the units inside out. Encourage training and development and pride in work. Ensure dedicated departure times and where possible dedicated platforms at each end of the route.

If I ran a railway it would be expensive, but by God would we show the rest how to do things.... Real railwaymen are not dead gents; we just need to be left alone to do things properly.

[joea1]

I actually like the 458s. The seats are thicker and more comfortable than the 450s, and while on one, I've never had a problem. I took a ride all the way to Reading yesterday, and I'm doing it again next Saturday. They aren't bad from a passenger's perspective.


These '459s' would be great as the Brighton Express service.

[Keelar001]

Oh yes, and we'd run one up and one down service each day with headboards reading "Brighton Belle", and the internal PIS would carry the scrolling display "Welcome aboard The Brighton Belle. Your train this evening (or morning) will be calling at London Bridge (or Brighton) only. Journey time will be 55 minutes."

[joea1]

Oh well, it was a nice dream, but it'll never happen . So what is the definite fate for the 458s?