Last Class 312 service this Friday - possibly

markw · Post by **markw** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:09 pm

According to Anglia-Gen Onege now has enough Class 321 units with Selective Door Opening for short platforms to replace the last 312 units which were being used instead. So, if all goes to plan, THIS FRIDAY will see the last public service of the 312 on the 1750 Liverpool St to Witham. However, as we all know, last dates are fickle things, and who knows what will happen.

delticmatt100 · Post by **delticmatt100** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:48 am

hi mark

i sure hope this wasnt the last day for the 312s

as i used to be a good train spotter before i became a worker for the railways..

i used to sit at enfieldlock and watch her thunder past.

it sure will be sad if that friday was the last day.

i hope someone can put a 312 in preservation for mini tours . i for 1 do not want the remaining 312s scrapped

any thoughts?

matty

markw · Post by **markw** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:56 pm

I'm afraid the chances of a 312 being preserved are slim as the preservation movement is obsessed with preserving multiple examples of unimportant diesels, whilst they take no interest in other, more important items. I'm a member of the AC loco group who are struggling to keep the 81-85's they have at Barrow Hill in some sort of order, but who get shouted at because "they" didn't preserve 87 101! The preservation record of EMU stock is even worse, for example:

The sole example of Bulleids Double-Deck train (probably the only modern British double decker and worthy of retention in the NRM in my view) is rotting away:

The 4-COR unit has an uncertain future

The attempt to preserve a 304 (the last unrefurbished modernisation plan AC unit in service at the time) failed at the 11th hour, despite units being purchased and "safe", because no railway would give it space and it was badly damaged in a vandal attack

The only examples of the LMS electric units, officially preserved by one of the Merseyside councils, and which was in working order, has been split up.

There is an appeal underway to save the last 309 currently used in a test capacity. If it succeeds, where will it go?

The 506 unit only exisits because apparently some very clever people at Ilford managed to hoodwink the BRB into thinking it had been scrapped, and by the time it was found it had been restored as a training exercise.

It makes me livid when I hear of yet another attempt to preserve one of the remaining rusting hulk 50's when we already have too many, or yet another 37, or 47, gets bought and repainted into some gaudy what-if livery, when examples of AC motive power, and Southern units, arguably of greater social significance, get ignored. But then, back in 1968 it was thought far more important to preserve yet anothe Black Five, or Castle, than preserve 10000 or 10001, the pioneer LMS diesels, which is seen today as almost criminal. Perhaps today's more anally retentive enthusiasts who consider anything not diesel powered as boring and consider at least fifty percent of each diesel class working on the Network should be preserved, might like to get thinking about how in years to come they will justify to tomorrow's enthusiasts the loss of a 304, or an 86, or Britiain's (so far) only double deck train.

As for it being the last journey for the 312, apparently they worked the Southminster-Liverpool St as usual this morning, even though Onege had put up notices to say Friday would be the last day. One report has said that it was due to vandalism affecting the units with Selective Door opening needed for the service, but some are saying it may be a training issue for staff. If the former, the 312's might be replaced quickly. If staff training, who knows? It seem they are due to have more combacks than Status Quo or an Onion Barghee.

phat2003uk · Post by **phat2003uk** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:11 pm

I totally agree with Mark there but I do think one problem with electric units is of course that preversed lines are not electrifed with overhead wires or the 3rd rail but a soloution for that would be to restore at a depot and then it can do railtours.

seaeagle · Post by **seaeagle** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:02 pm

Surprise, surprise 312's 718/721&723 working 17.50 Liverpool Street - Whitham tonight! So much for having enough modern rubbish to go round.

arabiandisco · Post by **arabiandisco** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:14 pm

I would agree with the sentiments about not preserving enough Multiple Units. The sheer number of those silly class 73s that are still knocking around...

Even though I'm a big Peak fan, I would say there are probably too many of them knocking around, Waaaaaay too many hoovers, especially considering there were only 50 of the buggers to start with.

Scrapping the LMS diesels, or the Bullied Diesels for that matter was criminal. As is scrapping the early AC electrics when we can preserve another wreck of a 33... Why does the NRM not want a 56? This country's first diesel designed for one specific duty, surely that's worth keeping?

Problem with the electric stuff is that there's nowhere to run it in preservation, and the 4COR and 2BIL will probably never run on the main line again due to being wooden bodied. A preserved line has no hope of raising enough funds to electrify, or get the safety case passed... That doesn't mean these things aren't important enough to be worth keeping. In 10 years time I'll be able to ride behind a 73 on severly reduced power, which means nothing to me, but will I be able to re-live the days when I was roaming the south of england with my mates on a 4VEP? I doubt it.

Save a 312 and paint it Blue/Gray!

seaeagle · Post by **seaeagle** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:32 pm

Why does the NRM not want a 56?

The people in charge at the NRM have no intrest in diesels, and until there is some new blood at the NRM, there wouldn't be diesels preserved there. How the hell they can get away with sending 50033 to Swindon is beyond me, (and I hate 50's!) and then spend a silly amount of money of a certain kettle, shows that they have no intrest in diesels.

tigermon · Post by **tigermon** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:32 pm

I was on the 312 on a Forum Meet with the guys over at The Transport forum, we had the seats right at the front as there were 7 of us, so we got to look out of the Windows at the front , albeit through a little flap, anyway, did any of your guys get down there?

phat2003uk · Post by **phat2003uk** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:18 pm

The 312s live longer, They are working the same diagram tonight.

markw · Post by **markw** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:21 pm

According to the Anglia-Gen site the 312's may be around a while longer and the Onege notices last Friday were a case of premature expectation. The 312's seem set to work the rest of the week at least following vandalism to the 321 fleet which has affected train lengths on other services.

Like many 70's rock bands of the same age as the 312's, don't count on any more "final" shows just yet as I suspect they will have a nasty habit of coming back like last night's Ruby Murray. At least until the basic maintenance cover and neglect means they finally expire.

Again, just like many a 70's rock star, really.

jimbob · Post by **jimbob** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:40 pm

I still cant unserstand why they don't just admit defeat & fit them with CDL!

jeastmond · Post by **jeastmond** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:19 pm

arabiandisco wrote:I would agree with the sentiments about not preserving enough Multiple Units. The sheer number of those silly class 73s that are still knocking around...

Class 73s are not silly! They are/were a novel and elegant solution to the problem of how you deal with unelectrified sidings when your major rails are electrified and you don't want to station a Class 08/09 shunter at every station yard...

The major problem with the class thenselves was that the ratio of Electric HP to Diesel HP was too big (1600/600). They could haul a pretty decent load on electric, but struggle to shift a small load on diesel...

markw · Post by **markw** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:51 pm

That's probably because the diesel engine was intended for use in yards where third rail was not a good idea with shunters walking around the tracks. The class 71 had a pantograph to allow it to be used in yards where a tramwire was erected, and the Bullied designed class 70's had a booster engine which in theory did a similar job (a huge flywheel which stored energy which was released to generate power when away from the third rail, a bit like a child's friction motored car) although how long they could keep going away from the rail I don't know. The diesel was designed to replace the booster engine and pantograph, and allow low speed haulage in yards and on quaysides. It never was intended for long use as a prime mover, but such is the English Electric engine's robustness they have been used in pairs on quite fast operations.

It's odd that more was never made of the Electro-Diesel concept as in the US there are electro-diesel Genesis locos working for Amtrak out of New York on third rail, switching to diesel once in the open air - and they are pretty powerful locomotives.

snowcrashandy · Post by **snowcrashandy** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:33 pm

markw wrote:It's odd that more was never made of the Electro-Diesel concept as in the US there are electro-diesel Genesis locos working for Amtrak out of New York on third rail, switching to diesel once in the open air - and they are pretty powerful locomotives.

It's certainly not a recent concept in the US, way back in the 1930s the New York Central RR were building dual powered locos, although the diesel powered side was minimal to say the least.

If you've downloaded any American stuff for trainsim the "classic" EMD F unit should be in amongst the stuff you've got, and available as a freeware download on 3d trains I think......

The F unit diesel saw the light of day in the late 1930s and progressed through a number of variants until the last batch were built in 1959/1960 for the New York, New Haven and Hartford RR (NYNH)

These were known as "FL9" locos F for F series, L for eLectric and 9 was the current series EMD used at the time to denote engine/transmission models.

The NYNH FL9s were dual powered and had a 1750hp diesel engine and adjustable 3rd rail electric shoes and could change from electric to diesel power at the flick of a (big) switch.

NYNH went bankrupt and most of the locos passed to other railroads, some went to Conrail, some to Amtrak and the Conrail ones ended up being operated by New York's (if you like PTE) Metro North, they rebuilt and re-engined a fair few in the early 1990s with EMD 710 engines and AC transmissions. All of which lead to the GE (and GM) dual power units that Mark mentioned.

Dual power in the Uk was based around different needs, the US needed locos that worked as well on diesel as electric, hence a loco that would do as well on both forms of power, it wasn't necessary in the Uk.

Have a think about the Class 73.......

On diesel it's doing a good imitation of a Class 205/207 power car, no wonder it can't pull too much, and, as an electric it's half a 4 REP EMU, the 4 REPs were designed to pull a further 2x4 car set of TC units about, so about a 12 coach train for 3200hp.

Didn't the 73s do well on the Gatwicks for 20 years then!

Nothing wrong with 73s in preservation, they deserve their place as long as too many don't get preserved.

Mini rant over

jonathanmlewis · Post by **jonathanmlewis** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

I saw about 1 hour ago 1312718, 721 and 723 (I think) come though Didcot being pulled by 66033 I guess they were going for long term storage or scrap somewhere in South Wales.

Sorry about the pictures not being that good as I was in the wrong place at the wrong time!