Atomic Systems

How much faster is the Pendolino really, compared to the old loco-hauled trains that operated on the WCML a few years back? How fast where the fastest loco-hauled services bethween Euston and Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Glasgow etc?

Also, if I have understood correctly, Virgin still operates one loco-hauled set on some services as a replacement for a Pendolino that was lost in an incident. But wich services then? I will maybe visit the UK in december and travel London - Glasgow and back, and it would be really nice to NOT have to go by Pendolino...

The fastest variant of the 86, and the 87, had maximum speeds of 110mph, and Mk3a coaching stock is also permitted at this speed. The WCML permits this speed, or somewhere near it, on substantial sections of route.

The Pendolino has a maximum speed of 140mph in theory, but 125mph is the fastest permitted in the UK iin practice (except for HS1 which is not relevant here). Because it can tilt, it can maintain higher speeds than conventional stock - including the HST - on many of the slower sections of the WCML.

The overall times from London to Glasgow seem to be 5h10m for conventional trains and 4h25m for Pendolinos. At least, that is what was quoted for the opening of the bulk of the WCML upgrade.

I didn´t know that the class 86 where allowed to operate at 110 mph.

Isn´t the class 90 also able to operate at 110? I have never really undersood why the class 90 where built to 110 mph, when both some lines and the MK3 coaches where allowed for 125 mph... As far as I know, there are no british locomotive wich are allowed to operate at 125 mph, exept the class 91.

There was one version of the 86 that was geared higher than standard and was, for a while, permitted at 110mph. I believe these were all later derated to 100mph like the rest of the ones with full suspension upgrades, with the fastest services being run by 87s.

The requirements for 125mph running for rolling stock include very stringent braking requirements, which can have a substantial maintenance burden. Specifying the 90 for 110mph (rather than 140mph as the 91 was) makes it rather more suitable for mixed-traffic work. Most likely it is also lower geared than the 91, again making it more suitable for general freight work.

Yes, thats true.
Here in Sweden, all rolling stock that runs faster than 100 mph must have magnetic track brakes, and therefore, we have no loco-hauled trains that run faster than 100 mph.

The Virgin LHCS service is the FO Euston-Birmingham New Street/Crewe/Preston using Freightliner Class 90's and Virgins 'Pretendolino' set with matching DVT it gets use on other days occasionally, not too sure on its entire diagrammes thought.

bonan wrote:As far as I know, there are no british locomotive wich are allowed to operate at 125 mph, exept the class 91.

Don't forget class 43s and the 89, if it gets restored, and I suppose the 41.

I don´t really see the class 43 as locomotives...

I forget about the class 89, but it isn´t regular service anyway.

And the 67. That and the 43 are the only diesels permitted to 125mph.

faedundee2 wrote:The Virgin LHCS service is the FO Euston-Birmingham New Street/Crewe/Preston using Freightliner Class 90's and Virgins 'Pretendolino' set with matching DVT it gets use on other days occasionally, not too sure on its entire diagrammes thought.

Class 90 digram hear http://www.class90electriclocogroup.co. ... grams.html

bonan wrote:How much faster is the Pendolino really, compared to the old loco-hauled trains that operated on the WCML a few years back? How fast where the fastest loco-hauled services bethween Euston and Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Glasgow etc?

Also, if I have understood correctly, Virgin still operates one loco-hauled set on some services as a replacement for a Pendolino that was lost in an incident. But wich services then? I will maybe visit the UK in december and travel London - Glasgow and back, and it would be really nice to NOT have to go by Pendolino...

The only loco hauled stock now between London and Glasgow are Scotrail Caledoniansleeper service with MK3 Sleepers and Mk 2 day stock.

http://www.class90electriclocogroup.co. ... grams.html

http://www.scotrail.co.uk/caledoniansleeper/index.html

booking in advance essential

MARTIN

Thank you! I have to go via the ECML then, because I get sick on tilting trains...

confidently no idea but much to other local train.

The ECML is proably the best way of getting from London to Glasgow and back avoiding the tilting of the train, plus you will have a seat lining up with the window on any East Coast service from London to Glasgow and will probably be more comfortable due to better(in my opinion) seating and more leg room.

faedundee2 wrote:... plus you will have a seat lining up with the window on any East Coast service from London to Glasgow and will probably be more comfortable due to better(in my opinion) seating and more leg room.

On the one through train of the day - none on Saturdays!

Andy L

The super high speed trains require special track to run on. Track and corridors may seem as very expensive investment of billions on euros/dollars, so often the solution is to try (conventional) high speed first with lower speeds and tilting EMUs like Pendolino to improve the comfort of travelling. The idea behind the Pendolinos too is to allow higher than normal speeds on the normal curved track by tilting the passenger compartment of the train a few degrees. Using tilting trains gives the country additional decades to build the high speed lines and often quarantees better service level for areas where building of the new track can't be judged.

The tilt on trains was first introduced in 1938 in U.S.A. by Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe Railway. The invention was a passive tilting system with unproper dampening and caused seasickness instead of the intended better comfort, so the experiment did not lead to the production phase. After much research the first successfull passive tilting train was finally created in 1950s by Talgo to use in Spain. For the active tilting system the first atttempts were made in Great Britain in 1970s in the form of Advanced Passenger Train or APT. While the initial experiment was not successfull: seasickness was the result again, this phenomenon was later fixed simply by adjusting the units to tilt slightly less (enabling still a slight sence of "cornering")! However, the initial negative publicity lead to withdrawal of the prototype trains.