727 Pro - Revisited

bigvern · Post by **bigvern** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:42 am

Further to my postings a few months ago, I thought I would revisit this one again before chucking it on Amazon Marketplace.

Pleased to report the sound problems seem to have vanished, or rather I was getting the same sound breakup crackling and static with several third party planes and I've updated my drivers.

I've also managed to get the thing airborne and getting used to the autopilot. It is different but once you learn the "traction" not impossible to use. I still think an autothrottle would have been a useful option, very hard to micromanage the speed.

The only issue I've got is that having reached 32000 feet and levelled out, if I exceed around 360kn the overspeed shaker starts to rattle!

So for the moment at least it has got a reprieve.

Speedbird083 · Post by **Speedbird083** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:14 am

When you say 360kts at FL320, is that your IAS or your ground speed (I don't think the 727 has a TAS readout)? If itâ€™s the former is probably well deserved. I don't recall what 360kts at 320 would be in terms of Mach but you'll not want to go above .85. Thatâ€™s a high-speed cruise for the 727.

With the regard the auto-throttle, with the likes of Captain-Sim, Dreamfleet, PMDG and most recently Level-D, the pride themselves on rendering an airframe as realistically as possible given the limitations of Flight Simulator. That is to say if it wasn't on the original itâ€™s highly unlikely they're going to offer it in the sim.

This isn't meant in an insult in anyway but the sort of packages they're releasing now aren't really designed with the casual simmer in mind, or with the intention of jumping around airframes as to operate them the way they were meant to be is starting to require more and more intricate knowledge of the aircraft's systems.
They're starting to abandon age old methods that have been supported certainly as long as I've been using FS, as I believe you found with the inability to start the 747-200 RFP's engines.

I never thought FS would become elitist when I loaded up Flight Simulator for Windows 95 and destroyed a C182 for the first time.

bigvern · Post by **bigvern** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:47 pm

The Mach readout is only about .62. I'll see if I need to twiddle the trim a bit.

I have no objection to high spec add-ons, part of the challenge is getting to grips with something that's more than just plug and play. However the publishers need to be a little bit more honest on the box art and publicity as regards the level it's aimed at. If 747 - RFP had stated a "cold and dark" start required each time, which requires you to become familiar with the systems and take 20 mins to set up, I might have steered clear. Instead they put a glossy picture on the box, a bit of blurb, make the whole thing look like it's at the same level as default MSFS - then give it prominent shelf space in Game. 727 has a 3+ rating on the box and this 43 year old has struggled with it!

Interesting I actually had an email from the guy who bought 747 - RFP off me and he is struggling with the engine start procedure too!

Speedbird083 · Post by **Speedbird083** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:33 pm

Oh I totally agree with you on the box art. Just sticking 'Advanced' or 'Professional' on there and/or into the title isn't sufficient.
I think thorough reading of the manual really should be stressed.
While its advisable to, they wrongly appear to assume everyone researches the products which they buy. While i'm not one of them they don't seem to really consider the gamer or simmer who happens to be on his way home on a Friday night and wants to pick something up for the weekend.

At FL320 if your IAS indicator reads 360 then I don't see how its possible for your Mach to be .62.
As it happens I'm at 32,000ft at 0.79M and the IAS readout is 290kts.

Click the image to zoom in

In your FS settings do you have display Indicated Air Speed or True Air Speed selected?

bigvern · Post by **bigvern** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:30 pm

I think it's set to TAS.

Speedbird083 · Post by **Speedbird083** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:44 pm

That might be why. I don't know how the Aircraft.cfg's are written but I guess its possible that the overspeed or stickshaker are driven by the air speed indicator, with an assumption that you're are using IAS (as you should really

).

Redbaron · Post by **Redbaron** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:11 pm

I like more complicated aircraft systems - I enjoy working out how to start the engines and eventually be able to do it in hardly any time - the ultimate goal for any add-on should be as near to perfect realism as can be achieved. As for the 727, I really like it, had no problems, except the altitude hold sometimes not working, which I'm sure there is a reason for and can be solved.

I think you have to bear in mind that every add-on aircraft for FS is designed for advanced users! Since the developers are just working on one aircraft version or one family, and you are paying good money, you expect it to be more complicated and realistic than the default aircraft, which weren't given so much attention. And the people who buy FS add-ons (casually or otherwise) are mainly people with a career or interest in aviation, so I'm sure they know what to expect from the aircraft if they're realistic.

Speedbird083 · Post by **Speedbird083** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:25 pm

Redbaron wrote:I think you have to bear in mind that every add-on aircraft for FS is designed for advanced users!

Hmm... that's debateable. I can see where you're coming from but a trip to Abacus' website might change your mind. Then there's Aerosoft's Commuter Airliners package which renders the ATR family, the A319/320 and the BAe 146 and it does this by giving all 3 aircraft a Flight Management Computer (FMC) out of a 737. Ahuh.

bigvern · Post by **bigvern** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:42 pm

I've reset to IAS and am now up to Mach .74 without the stick shaker activating, so it looks as if that was the problem. Guess if I want to use TAS I will need to doctor the config file?

bigvern · Post by **bigvern** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:50 pm

Redbaron wrote: I think you have to bear in mind that every add-on aircraft for FS is designed for advanced users! Since the developers are just working on one aircraft version or one family, and you are paying good money, you expect it to be more complicated and realistic than the default aircraft, which weren't given so much attention. And the people who buy FS add-ons (casually or otherwise) are mainly people with a career or interest in aviation, so I'm sure they know what to expect from the aircraft if they're realistic.

Don't know that I entirely agree with that. MSFS (as indeed MSTS) is primarily leisure software. We buy add-on packs to expand our experience in the programme but it is a little elitist to suggest that novices or casual flyers should refrain from buying these. It never used to be the case in earlier versions of FS. The game is designed as are most simulations to give those who could never expect to fly an aircraft in real life a little taster of the real thing. Maybe there's merit in developers producing two versions of each aircraft - the ultra realistic panel and controls for the experts and the more basic model for dummies like me and probably 80% of the rest of the users.

It also still doesn't address the issue that the likes of Just Flight are projecting these as mass market products and by the time you get home and load the thing up realise it's above your difficulty level. If it was as simple as returning the box for a refund then fair enough but most places selling PC software these days (notably Game) have changed their policies to non return/refund on PC titles so you are stuck with it. If I could register on the JF forum I was going to challenge the policy and see what there views are on it.

Speedbird083 · Post by **Speedbird083** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:54 pm

Well its an improvement but I still don't understand why its occuring at that speed. Is this still at a decent altitude? Is it accompanied by the OVERSPEED readout in the bottom right-hand corner?

bigvern · Post by **bigvern** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:18 pm

That's at 30,000 feet. Note I haven't had the rattle yet but in answer to the original problem it wasn't accompanied by the OVERSPEED warning. As you say it sounds like a config problem.

Speedbird083 · Post by **Speedbird083** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:26 pm

Thats a strange one. I've never had the stick shaker come on at any point other than a stall.
Might be a bit of a hassle but you may wish to try a re-install of 727 Professional.

Redbaron · Post by **Redbaron** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:43 pm

My point is though that the people who are playing on MSFS have an interest in aviation, right? So I may be mistaken here but I would think that most of them will want realistic aircraft. I can't see people who have no interest in aviation buying a flight sim - it seems to be quite a specialised market, like train sims. And even if don't know anything about aircraft, with some patience you can get the hang of it - when I first tried FS2000 I didn't have a clue how to land a 737, but I got the hang of it by practising, and so I then wanted a new challenge, i.e. a more realistic and complex aircraft to fly. That's just what happened to me anyway.

I would think that most of the JF and other add-ons (except the RFP 747-200 where bigvern found the engines wouldn't start), would be okay for any FSer as long as they were patient and took their time getting the hang of it. Of course a new add-on aircraft that is very advanced is difficult to understand the first time, but eventually through practising you can master it (at least that's the theory

).

Speedbird083 · Post by **Speedbird083** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:00 pm

Its a fair point.
I wouldn't want to be a developer. Seems no matter what they do fter the first few days/weeks of lauding they get bombarded from the two camps; the "how can you call this a realistic rendition if the secondary flight plan function isn't supported" brigade and the "you didn't state in the minimum requirement, after CPU and RAM that I'd need an MA in Physics" party.